#ELIMINATE FLICKERING
26 messages in this thread
I have an Amiga 2000 with the Super Agnus chip. I'm looking at several
products to eliminate flickering during the interlace mode. I know of two
products that can provide this service: MicroWay's FlickerFixer and ICD's
Flicker Free Video. Is there any more? Do you know the pros and cons
between the two? Thanks for your prospective comments!
Dennis –
You might want to look at Commodore's Display Enhancer card for the 2000
(A2320), it provides the same output that is built into the A3000
computers. It is less expensive than the FlickerFixer, provides better low
res. screen improvements (ie double buffers the low res screen so you get a
picture that is solid without the visible scan lines).
Street price on the A2320 is about $275.
I'm sure others will step in here to tell you more about this card.
– Roy Pahnke – 1.800.76.AMIGA
– Crazy Mountain Software – Casper Wyomin'
Your pricing information on the Microway flickerFixer is incorrect. Street
prices are very similar. In discussing these products I think it is
important to mention the incompatibility of the A2320 with genlocks
(despite many claims to the contrary) and its incompatibility with the
current Denise chip. With the majority of monitors, distracting moving
screen artifacts are visible when the A2320 is used with the non-ECS
Denise.
I am very disappointed at the repeated postings of inaccurate information
concerning the product I designed and the way in which false or misleading
information originally posted by a Commodore employee is repeated as fact.
Peter.
Peter –
Your right, street prices (and cost) on the FlickerFixer has come way
down. My last Distributor catalogs showed the FF to be retailed at $495,
however I checked with a couple of them this morning and it is down in
price. This I guess you were FORCED to do due to competion in the market
place. You all had several years there with no other product like it so
you could ask a higher price.
Your mention of the incompatibility problems are new to me. I have not
read anything about that either here on CIS or in any of the mags. I have
an A2320 installed in my system and see no "distracting moving screen
artifacts" with my non-ECS Denise. I do not own a genlock so I didn't know
that there was a problem – although I repeat, I have not read of this
before.
Peter, this is a public board and I think you, understandably, a bit
defensive about posting that may or may not be in your favor. I do not
know what false information that was originally posted by said C= employee,
I was only trying to help out and inform the original poster of this thread
about the presences of the A2320 card. It's not my fault that we can't
keep up with the failing prices of the FF.
– Roy Pahnke – 1.800.76.AMIGA
– Crazy Mountain Software – Casper Wyomin'
Roy, my apologies for the heat. I did not mean to imply anything improper
on your part. My frustration is due to occurences in another forum and has
no place here.
With regard to genlock compatibility, the thread titled SuperGen vs A2320
beginning with #16463 in Section 11 of AmigaUser is informative.
See my message #16747 in AmigaUser for information about display artifacts.
If you are using an A1950 monitor, then you may have to change the display
width switch to see the problem. The A1950 is one of the very few monitors
which can expand the image so as to move the artifact off the screen.
You might also check to see if the color 777 differs from 888 and look at
message #16753 and what follows. Every A2320 I have checked to date has
this problem. Peter.
Peter –
That's ok – I can understand your situation and your frustration. I
will check out the message numbers that you listed.
I am using a Emerson 1420EM multisync monitor and like if very much. It
is less expensive than some others – (In fact I can retail this one for
$395, just a little more than a 1084). This monitor also has a switch to
increase H-width, I believe that it is a Samsung OEM. And I truely have
not seen any artifacts. However I do have a problem with my 2320 card in
that it still flickers very much in interlace mode, but I am under the
assumtion that it is a bad card and I will be getting another one in soon.
I do really like the look in non-interlace though.
I am hoping that when I get a new 2320 in that the flickering will stop.
God- I'm tried of it.
– Roy Pahnke – 1.800.76.AMIGA
– Crazy Mountain Software – Casper Wyomin'
> I am using a Emerson 1420EM multisync monitor and like if very much. It
> is less expensive than some others – (In fact I can retail this one
> for $395, just a little more than a 1084).
Roy –
Can the Samsung/Emerson accept 15.75kHz signal (like the A1950, but UNLIKE
the Nec 3D)? How nearly can you fill the screen and eliminate the border?
. . . . . JimDoc
Jim –
The border is not to bad on this monitor. (The border doesn't bother me
at all – In fact I see it as tending to focus my attention towards the
center of the screen) I would say about 3/16's on the sides and I could
eliminate it top & bottom, but I don't cause I prefer a symmetrical look.
What do you mean accept 15.75 – like the 1950, but Unlike the NEC 3D? I
thought the NEC was a good choice – although expensive. Yes the 1950 has
no border (At least on the one that I saw last week) and is a very nice
monitor.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
> What do you mean accept 15.75 – like the 1950, but Unlike the NEC 3D?
At the moment I have no de-interlacer, and no budget for one, or for a
multisynch monitor. My readings here and questions at the dealer lead me
to believe that the both the Nec 3D and the Commodore A1950 monitor can (of
course) be plugged into the output of the MicroWay flickerFixer, or the ICD
FFV, or the A2320, or the A3000 de-interlacer and show rock-steady
de-interlaced 400 (more in overscan) lines. But the A1950, in CONTRAST to
the NEC 3D (and other multisynchs) can also (with other cable, or adaptor,
I don't know) be plugged into the _normal_ RGB output of the A2000 (no
de-interlace board) (which is 15.75 kHz) or into the separate 15.75 kHz RGB
port of the A3000.
This would allow me, for example, to buy the A1950, replace the 1080
monitor (with NO screen improvement), and later on buy a de-interlacer,
rather than budgeting for both at the same time.
. . . . . JimDoc
Jim,
You can connect practically any multisync monitor into the standard
Amiga RGB output port (no flicker-fixer type device required). I have at
times connected both a Nec 3D and an Imtec multisync to my 2000's RGB port.
The trick is making sure you have a proper cable. What you can't connect
to the RGB port, but can to the flickerFixer and it's competitors, is a
VGA-only monitor, as they can't handle the standard scan rate of the RGB
port.
Hope this helps….
…BobR
Bob,
According to published specs, a LOT of "multi-scan" class monitors will
not synch down to 15.75KHz. They _may_ work ok, plugged into the normal
RGB port, but if they do, they are operating outside their published
parameters.
Victor A. Wagner, Jr.
Jim – OIC
Yes the 1950 comes with and adaptor that will plug into the DB23 pin
video port. But most all Multisync's can also work with that port, if you
get a cable made for it.
Redmond Cable has on hand specs. and information about almost all
monitors on the market. They will have a cable for the NEC to Amiga. I
used my Emerson from the Video port for a few days while my A2320 was being
checked out. It's no big deal. The cables aren't that expensive. The
advantage here is that C= packs one free with every A1950.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
Jim:
When looking for a multisync monitor to hook directly to the Amiga's
standard RGB port make sure that whatever monitor you want will scan at the
Amiga's 15.75 scan rate. some multisyncs go from 30 – 90 and some go from
12 – 60 so it's important that you make sure that the monitor you want can
go to 15.75!
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Roy,
Did I read $395.00???
Geez! are you sure it's the 2320 and not the 1420em? $395.00 is hard to
believe!
I hooked up a VGA type monitor to my 2320, it was sooo small! talk about
borders, this was half of the screen size! There also was no sizing/
positioning buttons, but what do you want from a pc system?
JohnB
John –
The Emerson 1420em is a Multisync monitor, I think you are confusing it
with a VGA only monitor. This monitor has all the sizing controls. –
A short list of Specs;
14" VGA/EGA/PGA/CGA compatible multi-scan color monitor
non-glare 800×600 resolution
Analog/TTL input (switchable)
User controls; Brightness, contrast, text switch, manual/preset
switch, color switch, V-hold, V-size, V-position, H-position,
H-width
Scanning Freguency; Horizontal 15.5 KHz to 38.5 KHz (auto)
Veritcal 45 HZ to 80 Hz (auto)
From my experience the VGA only monitors will have no controls to speak of.
I too, tryed a VGA only monitor on the A2320 and was not please with the
results. Then I saw that one of my distributors had this Emerson on sale
and I ordered one for my own personal use. I am very happy with this
monitor. True it is not as nice as the A1950 – It does have a small border
still present on the left and right sides (See my message to Jim), but then
again it's not as expensive as the A1950. I just checked and yes, I can
still sell this Emerson for $395 (where as the 1950 – I have to sell for
$575).
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
– Crazy Mountain Software –
> With regard to genlock compatibility, the thread titled…
Peter –
I learned an interesting addendum on the subject of genlocking and
Commodore de-interlacers when I raised the question at my local Amiga
place, pointing out your comments on the User forum.
They had a demo running: genlock (ProGen, I -think-) plugged into the back
of the A3000, laserdisk player running demo images. Looked impressive and
professional. BUT — it wasn't running on the 3000's monitor (A1950); it
was running on a completely separate monitor coming off the 15.75kHz
output!
Sales manager (and the only really knowledgable guy there) said, "Go ahead,
turn on the 1950" and when it did it showed ONLY noise, not a hint of a
sensible image coming out of the 3000's de-interlacer!
. . . . . JimDoc
Roy,
I have both a FF and an A2320 (in two different machines). They both
work. I definitely prefer the FF. The right side border is sort a
stairstep that crawls up the screen. Nothing important is displayed there
but it IS annoying unless a dark screen color is used. At the very top and
at the very bottom is an incomplete line that flickers. This can be
adjusted off the top and bottom on my NEC 3D but the right border cannot.
Also pictures look different on the 2320 due to an apparent problem
displaying all 16 levels for each color. There is no discernable
difference between level 7 and level 8 on my card. I think this is a
service problem that can be fixed. I do like the switch on the 2320 to
switch from interlace to non-interlace. I am able to display a slightly
larger screen with the 2320.
I bought the 2320 when it first came out and the FF was still much more
expensive. I don't have a genlock to test for compatibility.
….Mark
The problems with the half line at the top and the bottom are due to the
older Denise. That's why we put a jumper on FFV to allow you to switch
those two lines off (old denise) or on (ecs denise).
Craig
Craig:
Those half lines are NOT fixed by the new denise! I have a 2320 installed
in my machine with the ECS Denise, and WB 2.0 and the upper half line is
still a half line (and the other half flickers!). I've never noticed a
lower line though.
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
Are the top and bottom lines you refer to part of the Amiga display? Or
just background video? — boy if two of my data lines were gone I'd be
%$@#'d! –jp–seattle–
Maybe Commodore thought that most machines using the 2320 would have the
new Denise. I'm sure they expected 2.0 and ECS to be available when they
designed the 2320. Your solution sounds like a good one. What do you do
about the stuff on the extreme right side?
….Mark
Mark –
I know what you mean about that stairstep. I have actually had my 2320
since December and my interlace screen still flickers badly. I have talk
to tech about it, sent the card back, and have tryed another card – all to
no avail. However, just yesterday I figured out what the problem was.
Apparently I never read paragraph # 7 on page 18! There it mentions a
jumper on the mother board (J300) that should be set from the factory in
the left had postition. It has to do with the timing to the CIA chip. With
the jumper in the left postition it will take its timing from the AC Freq.
but in the right postition it takes its time base from the Vertical Sync.
The A2320 needs it to be in the left.
I don't know what factory put my CPU together cause when I pulled the
Power Supply to check the jumper sure enough it was in the wrong position.
I just changed that jumper and all my Flickering went away. Now, finially
I have a the display I have have wanted since getting this card and monitor
combo in DECEMBER!
Now that I am flicker free, I can live with the other problems. I will
have my tech do the fix for the 07 and 08 problem.
–> "The fix can even be as simple as soldering the 33 ohm resistor packs
on the back of the A2320 pcb to the existing 180 ohm reistor pack (RP301,
RP302, RP303 on the pcb silkscreen) which results in the 33 ohm being in
parallel with the 180 ohm resistor pack and is A-OK. This is about a five
miniute job."
Thanks Mark for you comments – if only FF lowered there price a long time
ago, we'd have alot more people out there with Flicker Free displays.
– Roy Pahnke – 1.800.76.AMIGA
– Crazy Mountain Software – Casper Wyomin'
Roy, the FlickerFixed does buffer non-interlace output (which is what I
think you meant by 'low-res') to give you an absolutely solid
non-interlaced screen as well. I'm looking at it right now, and there are
*NO* scan lines there 🙂 –jp–seattle–
Yes John, that is what I meant.
But I was under the impression that C= did something different to
improve the non-interlace screens.
– Roy Pahnke – 1.800.76.AMIGA
– Crazy Mountain Software – Casper Wyomin'
Hmmm…. possibly they do. I was just pointing out that the FlickerFixer
also does that. (eliminating the scan lines in non-interlace mode)
–jp–seattle–