Please Read This Msg!
34 messages in this thread
I would like to get some feedback from users of Benchmark Modula-2
here on CIS.
Please, post a brief message here to let me know you are interested in
this forum, what you are doing with BM-2, whether you are using
AmigaDOS 2.0, are you interested in an upgrade for 2.0, would you
like me to upload on a regular basis Modula-2 programs from my
extensive library collected over the years or anything else you would
like to tell me?
I have been asked by the folks at CompuServe to see how much interest there
is in this forum. If there is not much interested then they will probably
close this section and my account. If that was to happen, you will not be
able to conveniently communicate with me via email or this forum.
Thank you for your cooperation!
>> Leon Frenkel Avant-Garde Software
Leon –
I'll be leaving an EMail regarding your this-month-only sale; the prices
are finally reasonable enough to make it worth considering something
besides M2Sprint.
I would definitely like to see some M2 programs uploaded here – I had
very few examples to go from when doing the project I just completed, and
they probably would have helped a great deal. And there are other things
I'd like to start on that perhaps a program could give me hints about that
aren't in any of the manual, books, and mags (tech and otherwise) that I
find myself searching through constantly.
I'm currently using 2.04, and have changed my mind about having the
capability to switch. The only program I used regularly that crashes under
2.0 was John Scheib's IconMaster, and I've found a not-quite-as good
alternative. Point being, an upgrade for 2.04 (libraries, defs, etc.) is
almost essential if I want to avoid going to HiSoft Pascal or Oxxi's
on-and-off M2 compiler.
I own both M2Sprint and Benchmark, though I've worked longer with
M2Sprint and frankly, when I looked through the BM manual I didn't see any
reason to switch, especially since even the mail-order prices to get the
same functionality I had with M2Sprint were as much as I paid for M2Sprint
new. But if no 2.0 defs & such are forthcoming for M2Sprint (however more
desirable that would be) then given your special and a (hopefully) similar
upgrade pricing I'll be giving BM another look.
If you're taking suggestions, the things I like best about M2Sprint are
the completeness of the libraries over and above Knuth (i.e., they included
WriteBytes (plural) and you didn't, and there are others), the fact that
the complete library source was included (which has already enabled me to
fix at least three compiler bugs), and the integrated environment. I can
edit the program, hit three function keys, and it's running. Very
convenient.
As far as interest in the forum goes, perhaps a stronger presence (like
the example file uploads you mentioned) would generate more interest.
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[ continuation ]
Folks might DL the examples and then post questions about them, which would
spark conversation, I'd think.
OK, I'm done now 8^). I might have wandered a bit from your orignal
request, but I hope this has been at least a little interesting. Thanks
..
Harry
Harry,
Don't forget, the reason you are sitting with and unsupported M2Sprint is
because of Leon. He might do it to you again with BM. I don't believe he
has rehabilitated his business scruples. So be careful out there in M2
land….
wmc
Wayne,
Give the guy a break. He's been around this long. It's a better track
record than I've seen from some companies.
-Dave-
Dave,
I'm giving him as much of a break as he gave me when I asked for support on
M2Sprint the first week after he got it. I also believe it is not too late
to revive M2Sprint with an upgrade of just the libs to be 2.04 compatible.
That alone might make me disposed to give him the benefit of the doubt
about his less than people oriented business operation against M2Sprint,
and make me moer disposed to perhaps buy BM. But I won't compromise a
principle. If a business fails to treat me fairly and with respect, I will
take my business elsewhere. Comprimise of pinciple for no good reason
other than convenience leads to moral decay which is among the prime
factors in this countries economic woes. I can contribute to the solution
by not allowing myself to support ther problem with my money power. But,
like anything else in life, each has his own path and should follow his
inner dictates. So my comments on the subject will end here.
wmc
WMC –
That's why I'm an SAS user now. 🙂 Loyd
How much of a break did the original publishers of M2Sprint give you? They
are the ones who sold out to Leon in the first place. And, as I recall,
Leon stated at the time the only reason he bought it out in the first place
was for the customer list. No one else wanted it at all.
I bought BM originally from OXXI. I was not (and still am not) happy with
the result via the support, but finally I received the released version of
BM. I did not get the M2Sprint because of all the bug complaints I saw on
the boards about it. While there have been some complaints about BM bugs,
I have never run into one while using it. I will probably take advantage
of Leon's offer because the manuals I received from OXXI were not the
greatest, and I would like some workable manuals.
I do have some suggestions for upgrades (Leon, if you're reading this, you
will get a _long_ letter with my order), but on the whole have found BM to
be an excellent product. With the new prices, it is a good buy.
Bill Roberts in Ellettsville In. via Whap!
1. The sellers of M2Sprint had no idea Leon was the buyer as he did
a masterful job of hiding behind a front company until the contracts
were completed. 2. His objective was never to get the customer list
but to remove the product from the market place so he would have no
competetive pressure to prefect/enhance his product accept as his
bank acount demanded – asituation in which he, no doubt, finds
himself now. As proof are the statements he made to me in this very
forum that the M2Sprint onwers wera a mere 300 people for whom he
could not muster the compassion/energy/good business sense to: a)
inform of the sale b) provide a limited term of support c) provide a
"weening" path/deal to BM. (300 25cent stamps and a nice discount
deal were too much for him to spend, but the potential of 300
full-price 'upgrades" to BM was mouth-watering for him). 3. M2Sprint
was not "buggy". The final version had one bug in a string to real
conversion routine to which all users had the source. David Czaya and
I found it independnently, sent the fix to John Stiener who published
it, Leon, who ignored it, (an expample of the fine support BM owners
can expect as well, I suspect) and to any one else who expressed
interest. Other bug reports I've seen have been related to early
releases and were subsequently fixed by Martin before the "fall".
NONE of the bugs were in the compiler proper, so all were fixeable by
editting library source and recompiling. 4. The "deal" being offered
is not such a deal when you consider the product being sold was
designed primarily for 1.2/1.3 ADos. You'll no doubt be expected to
pay a steep price for the inevitabel 2.0 upgrade which will be out
about the time 2.x or 3.x is in beta with developers. ie, you are
going to be one rev down anyway. Might 's well stick with what youve
got for free. After all, the support BM has gotten here has been
equal to the support M2Sprint has gotten here since Leon bought it
(odd… he was much more of a presence when M2Sprint was a
competetor…)
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[ continuation ]
5. Most people who own both like M2Sprint better since it was a complete
package and easier to use. It didn't require buying this lib and that libe
and debugger all as seperat units so its cost was much lower as well. The
main reason these people use BM is due to the assumption that its chances
of being supported are slightly less remote than M2Sprint's. I, myself,
prefer the Missouri attitude on that one…
wmc
Wayne,
Only 300 M2Sprint owners? That's criminal. It was SUCH a great compiler.
BTW, I just got HighSpeed Pascal from HiSoft. Basically it's Turbo Pascal
5.5 for the Amiga! (It even compiles many PC Turbo Pascal programs
unchanged.) Includes 1.3 "Units," 2.04 Units should be available in April.
I haven't had time to do much except compile and run the demos, but this
looks really good.
Denny,
The 300 was Leon's number. I don't know what it was, but it never made it
to general distrib in stores before the massacre. 2.0 was supposed to be
the general releas version.
I have written the swiss company that has an M2 and Oberon for info on
their products. I also keep pestering Oxxi to get Martin to finish up the
M2 compiler and Ada compiler he was working on before goint to CBM as a
direct employee. The Hi_soft Pascal sounds like a good fall-back though.
wmc
Denny,
I noted your mention of a package from HiSoft called "HighSpeed
Pascal". I have searched intently for an address/phone number for HiSoft to
no avail. I'd appreciate any info you could give me. I've been waiting a
long time for a Pascal compiler for the Amiga… Sounds like its finally
here…
Thanks in advance…
Jim Joslin
Jim,
US Dealers can get the program through American Software Distributors.
If you want to contact HiSoft direct about the program, write HiSoft, The
Old School, Greenfield, Bedford MK45 5DE UK; phone +44 (0) 525 718181; Fax
+44 (0) 525 713716.
The program's great. Basically Turbo Pascal 5.0 on the Amiga.
Thanks Denny…
Small wonder I haven't heard about it… I'll check it out though… Any
idea what it is priced like ?
Jim
Denny,
A new pascal compiler for the Amiga is something I would be interested
(because that is how I learned to program and haven't learned anything
else). Do you have an address and/or phone number for HiSoft–they are
located in USA aren't they, or are they European?
via Whap! Al Benglen
74615,500
Al,
Search back for messages posted by me over the last couple of days–I
posted HiSoft's address there. There's an ad for it in the latest Amiga
Computing, if you can find British Amiga mags locally.
It's imported into the US by American Software Distributors. I know
Creative Computers has had it in stock.
If you can't find my previous message, let me know and I'll dig the address
up again.
Denny,
Thanks for the reply and info. I will just call American Software
Distributors direct and see what I come up with. I have an old (recent) AC
Guide with them listed in it.
via Whap! Al Benglen
74615,500
I was an early supporter of modula 2, taught it at my amiga store, bought
each compiler for reviewing capabilities, expected to develop serious
software for it. The three major versions I bought: TDI, Benchmark, and
M2SPRINT all had their nifty features and ultimate disappointments. I
program in C for my day job but understood the advantages of M2. Ada would
be even better but alas. C++ fixes up some of C's sorry incapabilities and
hazards but it has become the coin of the realm. I spent so much money
trying to get (and keep) a decent modula 2 compiler that I become totally
depressed with the whole endeavor when I kept getting stabbed in the back
by the vendors. This language and its purveyors gave amigas a bad name for
a while, until most people gave up on it. What a shame. I'm sorry for the
flames so late in the story but just reading about one more, "Order now!
Special offer!" from one of the guys who I wanted to trust got me royally
P-O'ed. John Hyaduck (I wanted to believe…)
John, I share your feelings completely. Martin Tailefer (one of the
M2Sprint authors who also took it in the back from our friend) was working
on both an m2 and an Ada compiler (you can see some of the environement
underpinnings in TurboText pref files) then got hired as a direct by CBM.
I don't know if he is still working for them or not. I was hoping he got
into a prosition to finish both efforts.
wmc
Hi Wayne:
Thank you very much for your intelligent comments on this forum. You seem
to be a very educated person. Seriously now, have you ever considered
running for President?
>> Leon Frenkel <<
Nope, you don't want me to be president. I'd sic the IRS on you just for
grins until you agreed to give the M2Sprint owners support, revived and
updated the libs for ADos x.xx or provided them a favorable upgrade path to
BM – at least as good as you provide to BM owners going from one rev to the
next. I'd figure that maybe a taste of your own cold heartedness might
enlighten you.
wmc
Dear Wayne:
Thank you for your comments.
>> Leon Frenkel <<
This is a public forum – let's lighten up a bit. Business flames should be
made in writing directly… I'm guilty but feel better now.
Leon,
I would love to get M2 examples. The Benchmark "underground" is still out
there, but wholeheartedly disillusioned. The market is not dead, by any
means (note the ongoing support for M2Amiga and now HiSoft Pascal), but we
need some fodder. Using alternative languages is tough enough by itself. I
still consider C to be more of a "challenged" language. 🙂
I would love to see ongoing discussions of BM or Modula 2 in general here.
IMHO, an occasional public posting, some source files, an occasional
newsletter, support for 2.0 and a little advertising would bring BM back
online strong. There are a LOT of people who just can't take C.
Don't even think about 1.3 anymore. Everyone is going 2.0. If they aren't,
then they aren't the people to be addressing anyways. I would definitely
support an upgrade without hesitation. If you would like some of my ideas
of what I think an upgrade needs, let me know. I don't want to sound pushy
(and besides, it'll create another message here). 🙂
I admit, too, that I prefer the M2Sprint implementation to BM, but I have
gone back to BM 100% simply because of the debugger and the hope of future
support for BM.
-Dave
Dave,
Don't forget this is the guy who pulled M2Sprint out from under you then
said you weren't significant enough to warrant support. Do you think you
should support him?
wmc
In a word… yes! If he's going to upgrade BM, then I'll buy it. What are
the alternatives?!? I'm not donating the money, I'm purchasing a product.
So far, both packages function for me. I'm not happy that I've had to wait
this long for an upgrade, but then again, I've got half a dozen other
programs sitting on the shelf that were orphaned and didn't work very well
from the start.
I am sorry M2Sprint went the way it did, but it's over. I have to look to
the future and I want an upgrade. Ok, you got burned, so did I. It's not
the first or the last time. Talk to any Amiga Word Perfect owner. This
isn't the biggest marketplace in the world. Good or bad, like it or not,
this is what we have and if we don't support it, it's PC-ville!
[Sorry to preach. I just want BM and the Amiga to survive.]
-Dave
PS Please don't counter-reply. This isn't the forum for it. If you want to
talk more about this, let's take it to AmigaUser or email…
Leon,
I don't use my Benchmark at all anymore. However, if you released a new
version with (1) full 2.0 support (2) "Easy" libraries (you have the source
for those in the M2Sprint modules you bought and shelved), and (3) ability
to use a non-EMACS editor such as TurboText, I'd upgrade. Heck, I'd even
buy it outright again. 😉
Denny,
I use BM and Turbotext all the time. Just write a small script to use M2
and M2Lk directly. It's not perfect, but it works. The biggest problem is
getting the M2Err and TTX to communicate. I started working on it, but
never quite finished it.
-Dave
Leon,
I use this forum frequently, I would look forward to anything you might
care to upload. Please update BenchMark to match the new WorkBench, I am
sure there are a good number of us out here who still prefer Modula to 'C'
( The Amiga is far too interesting a machine to be limited to a single
'real' language. I would love to see BenchMark updated as well as Pascal
and ADA offered for this machine ).
I have sent an order for software to your E-Mail address. Thanks Leon
Leon:
I agree with Gary. I had thought from time to time about getting an
M2 compiler, but gave up on the idea when I didn't see you here for a while
-thought you'd gone out of business. I hate C, would prefer Ada, but would
gladly settle for M2 if it's viable.
I'd also like to play with Smalltalk and other languages, for that
matter.
And how about Modula-3?
Leon,
I'd be more interested in this forum if there were a little more activity
on it. I haven't actively used BM2 in a while, mainly afraid to invest
time and find myself abandoned if I needed help. Examples would be great.
I currently use 2.04 and would welcome a BM2 upgrade. If I could customize
my development environment using AREXX and CanDo or similar, that would be
great.
*** jd
?
Hi Leon
The name's Bill. I'm studying Digital Systems Design here at Simon
Fraser University in beautiful British Columbia. The instructional language
of choice here is Modula-2, so I found myself buying your package about a
year and a half ago. For the most part, I've been very happy with what I
got. I kind of miss having a NEW and DISPOSE, but otherwise all is well. As
you may guess, we Amigoids are fairly scarce around these parts, with the
vast majority of machines being DOS boxes, Unix boxes and Macs. Kind of
nice being different, though.
In answer to your question about 2.0, I'm running an Amiga 3000. I
nuked 1.3 a while back to recover the drive space so I guess you might say
I 'seldom' use 1.3 anymore. Yeah, I'd really like to see a 2.0 version of
the compiler. If you get around to it, a few suggestions:
-add the missing NEW and DISPOSE
-permit the superfluous use of EXPORT statements in .def
modules.
Some of us have professors who work on older compilers and
expect
EXPORT statements, even though they have been removed from
the
language spec.
-maybe include direct support for linking M2SCS to Cygnus
Ed Pro.
You did a nice job on your editor, but some of us would
like to use
one editor for all of our work. It saves learning another
editor.
I know that M2CED is around, but if it doesn't install
itself, I
haven't the time to screw with it. 'Nuff said?
Anyway, I have and use the package and would like to see more files
and messages.
Bye
Bill. 76475,1722 or George_Wagstaff@sfu.ca [D [D [A/exit
Leon:
I have had BM2 for 3 years now. I have done a lot of programming with it.
I'm running 2.0 on a 3000. I would really like to see an upgrade to
support 2.0. Some of the work I'm doing now I've started re-writing in C
to obtain the features available in 2.0. As a side note, I believe the
debugger for BM2 is the best I have ever used.
Have you considered writing a Modula-3 compiler? I think it looks real
nice! Exception handling, object oriented….
Please post more examples on-line. I check this column often and don't see
anything. Once your upgrade to 2.0 is out, you will have alot more
activity here.
Dan Barber