Is Collecting Proper
15 messages in this thread
Its not an issue of wether you are causing pain to the Earth. What is found on
public land belongs to us all. This includes the people who don't have the time
or the resources or the technical skill to find valuable specimens. Its is
interesting to see the denial and rationalizing that goes on with this subject
matter. When I was in college I knew people who went into mines in the middle
of the night and blasted away until the got the valuable samples they wanted,
sold them for profit from a private land or a public one. Gold in my mine is no
different than you stealing the gold from my wifes jewery box. So, if you leave
it unattended it is fair game, so if I come to your home when your not there it
O.K. for me to "collect" your mineral specimens. Please leave name and address
below, plus when you are not going to ge home, I want to start a collection to.
Breaking into someone's property is wrong, regardless if you go there to
steal rocks or dollars. I don't know what you mean my "belongs to us all."
Isn't that exactly like your description of theft? You agree there's
something valuable out there, but you don't think there's someone out there
who'll blast it out in the middle of the night? Who's protecting this?
The mining lobby in Congress? Loggers? Someone who thinks it's better to
let the fossils rot in the next storm, or better yet, to shut them up in a
warehouse?
I know there's people out there who blast it out in the middle of the night,
thats what should stop. Did you know that people have broken into others
property at night to steal specimens, got hurt, sued the owner of the property
they trespassed on and won. You didn't build a high enough and strong enough
fence to keep me out so your'e liable if I get hurt. Happens!
Understand, I am not against collecting samples weathered out of
outcrops or vissible at the surface. I do think collectors should, pay a land
use fee, be tested as to competance and concern for the land and samples of
over a certain value, say $100.00 should be taxed if sold. Valuable and unique
specimens should have their origins acurately map and that location recorded.
It should be the collectors responsibility to do so.
The purpose of a forum is to bring out ideas and all sides of an
issue. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, don't expect everyone to agree
with you.
It's not as if they require competency tests of people who camp in the national
parks…
They, aren't taking anything out and selling it under the table.
Todd:
I don't reject the public trust concept out of hand. A trust, however,
usually is defined by its purpose and the idea of incapacity. The
problem, as I see it, with witholding public lands from a desired use, is
that there is no well-defined common good in many instances. The trustees
are thus doing nothing more than imposing their personal preferences on
others. This sort of behavior is bad enough when it comes from elected
officials, but surely we should not condone it from bureaucrats!!
If a trustee improperly excludes the beneficiary from the enjoyment of
the property held in trust, and the beneficiary manages to get access to
the entrusted property, the beneficiary has not stolen anything. Sound
common law reasoning, which has the advantage of according with our moral
principles at that!!!
The argument from a trust model also fails because it assumes the
incapacity or incompetence of the beneficiary, and it implies the geater
sagacity of the trustee. I prefer to think that the fossil and mineral
collecting community ought to be treated with the same respect that our
constitution and laws give to the criminal accused, the handicapped, the
ethnic or racial minority, etc.
If there needs to be reasonable use regulations or permitting, so be it.
But let's not anthropomorphize the earth and fret about the "scars" that
collectors might create on the face of the earth. Let's not rationalize
this aesthetic Nazism by saying that collectors should be satisfied by
"taking a picture." The "specimen" had no value at all, to anyone, till
the collector admixed his labor and knowledge with it. John (locke) and
Karl (Marx) would have even agreed on this one.
Nathan
Dear Nathan, I have a masters degree and alot of you arguements went over my
head, you are a very articulate man. This forum seemed to have attracted only
one point of view. I wanted to bring out another. Some of these arguements
collectors use they seem to want to apply to American Indian artifact
collection ande other activities that simply aren't not right.
I am not against the collection of weathered out fossil specimens or
rock samples. There is alot of collection on private and public land for no
other use than monetary gain of an individual, the collector. People who can't
babysit their claims often find supports and hard labor blasted to bits for
someone trying to find a sample.
Collectors should be certified, pay a land use fee, and be taxed on
valuable finds. In addition valuable samples should be mapped accurately and
the collection point made available to others.
Public land means access to all, enjoyment for all, when you take
something out of these lands and put it in your display cases, you get to see
it and say who else does as well.
Hmm. I wonder if any human can "repatriate" any given chordate fossil,
considering it *might* be a distant relative. 🙂
The government's lands are vast. It's on the order of 30% of this country, I
think. They aren't managed as if they "belong to everyone". They're doled out
as political favors. A bunch of rockhounds or long-hair dino diggers don't cut
it. They certainly don't measure up for more "important" concerns involving
industries with big political lobbies.
Todd
You definitely got us going with those first couple messages, but you
apparently don't really think we should be kicked off the land. I do not
understand your point of comparing collecting minerals and fossils on public
land with stealing from someones home, or mine. Stealing is stealing no matter
where.
Nathan and Doug pretty well answered things and covered most of the subject.
Minerals, fossils and gems are just more resources. They belong to everyone,
and thus should be accesible to everyone. If an individual has no interest in
them, then fine, he/she can leave them alone, but should not restrict those of
us who care and are interested from touching them.
It is the same with every other resource: a non-fishe has no right or good
reason to stop another from fishing; someone may not like logging but loggers
don't cut down trees to be destructive they produce the the timber which
becomes the lumber that people buy to build homes–the same goes for miners
etc.
People who don't have any interest in collecting minerals and fossils should
not tell me I can't touch them, just like I have no right to order all ski
resorts removed, all boat launching factilities removed, etc.
Some of us look for the scientific value of minerals, fossils, etc. as much or
more than the aesthetic and ownership value. I hope this country doesn't become
so short sighted that we stop another group of scientific endeavors.
Unfortunately, some people throw in a lot of emotional material in such
discussions as these which tend to cloud the issue or cause strong emotional
reactions that are not warrented, such as your reference to stealing.
Collecting shouldn't be allowed everywhere, but only specific areas where there
are problems should there be restrictions. Most lands seem to be getting along
just fine as are.
Yes, collecting sites should be documented and recorded. They should be made
known to everyone interested. That is why we have several hobby magazines
loaded with articles on localities and also many guidebooks. The information is
being shared. But, this hobby is like everything else in life, there are people
who are in it only for the money and some of them will break the law. That
shouldn't mean the rest of the people should be punished. My favorite
collecting locality was recently closed by the Forest Service–the Sawtooth
Mountains, Idaho. One of the complaints was the commercial production (which
unfortunately was way over reported. this is not an easy area to find anything
in). So the Forest Service shut it down. Now best as I can determine from what
I hear at gem and mineral shows, those of us who obey the laws and try to be
careful, etc. are not collecting in there, but those who are trying to make
money out of it and were breaking the law by attempting commercial collecting,
still are.
Lanny
Idaho doesn't have a lot of good collecting sites? At least there's mountains,
right? I'm in Wisconsin. All the good stuff was scraped away by glaciers a
long time ago.
John
Yes, we have mountains, and lots of them, the entire center strip of the state
from N to S. We do have collecting sites, a few fairly nice and I am trying
hard, exploring, to find more. Fortunately, because of the mountains and the
scenery, that is even fun when nothing collectible is found.
Unfortunately, the possible collecting areas are dwindling fast. The new
Wilderness proposal is for 9 million more acres locked up in Idaho! Those who
are proposing it say the land belongs to everyone so they do with it as they
please, not what Idahoans want to do with it. Naturally they aren't asking
everyone what they want to do with it they are only asking environementalists
what they want, and when they do as others, they don't give them the whole
story. 9,000,000 more acres locked up and only accessible to those few healthy
people who like to hike. Watch out for the big lumber shortage!
We have already lost the best collecting area in Idaho because of Wilderness —
Sawtooth Mountains. What's next?
Lanny
Hi, Lanny–
I was mainly aware of the wilderness expansion in Calif., where the Desert
Protection Act (?) seeks to lock up a lot more land than BLM proposals, which
at least paid some attention to how the lands are used.
–Doug
No everyone should not be punished collecting in of itself is not wrong. I've
seen damage by people who did not know what they were doing, which I don't
believe includes you. Sometimes the reason a person has a gun out there in the
field is they as small operators have had their small little claim, their hold
on independence, dynamited to expose what some highgraded though might have
hide a good ($) specimen. They knew damn right well they were somewhere they
didn't belong.
Hi, Todd–
"people who don't have the time or the resources or the technical skill to
find valuable specimens", if they have any interest in the specimens at all,
should be pleased that commercial collectors are willing and able to do it and
make specimens available for sale.
The buyer is mostly paying for someone else's willingness to invest time,
resources, and technical skill in finding the specimen. The buyer will also
have to pay for any cost the land owner imposed on the collector; that part of
the price will be nil if it was public land (unless there is some degree of
investment to satisfy some tough new licensing regime, or charges are imposed
for collecting on public land).
In other words, people who can't or won't compete with my amateur collecting
expeditions can in effect hire someone else to do it for them, by buying
specimens. I will be the one at a handicap, since I have not the same
expertise and resources the commercial types can bring to bear, but I can hire
them also if I so choose.
If anyone steals specimens from a mine you privately own, you have my
permission to go steal their jewelry. But I see _no one_ here advocating
plundering private property without the permission of the owner. Why do you
keep talking as if someone did propose this?
All of us are talking about convincing the owners of public lands (i.e., the
public) to continue granting us permission to collect there. Someone has been
trying to convince the stewards of the lands that they should move towards
banning collecting without asking the owners (i.e., without taking a vote of
all the public), so we are also talking of trying to convince the stewards not
to change things without that vote of the owners.
Those who are trying to lock us part-owners off the public land without the
clear approval of the full ownership are the ones doing the stealing, if anyone
is.
–Doug
That's right let the public decide what should be done with public lands. All
concerned should be heard. For you info my son just purchased by mail a basic
rock specimin kit. Igns, Seds and Meta's plus your basic minerals. Many people
do damage or don't give a damn who's property they destroy, public or private.
Collectors serve a useful purpose, should be the stewards of the land, and if
they make a profit should pay for its upkeep and maintence for future
generations.