CompuServe Thread

Hi, Todd– It does not come naturally to me to break laws, whether enforced or not, thus for me a law is not OK just because it will not be policed. Such a law does not hamper the scofflaws, thus it accomplishes little besides breeding disrespect for laws in general. Regarding insults: if you are referring to Nathan's message, wherein the closest thing I saw to an insult was "Let's not rationalize this aesthetic Nazism…", observe that the adjectives are applied to ideas you expressed, rather than yourself. _Everyone_ comes up with ideas that deserve criticism now and then – which ideas are so deserving is a matter of opinion, but forbidding such criticisms would leave little room for reasoned arguments. In my opinion Nathan stayed this side of the forum rule against personal attacks; your most recent responses to him are the ones that trouble me most regarding that rule. Note you were the first to refer to someone else's remarks as "rationalizing", which is within the stated bounds, but not an invitation to an overly polite response. You seemed to think that Nathan's message also accused you of communism – all I saw in Nathan's message before you used the word was "John (locke) and Karl (Marx) would have even agreed on this one." I think that Nathan was making a point having nothing to do with some of the attributes of Nazism that seemed to concern you (racism, etc.) – it seemed to me he was saying something like "justifications for government involvement tend to overlook the failures of a wide range of intrusive governments ranging from Nazism to 'communism' and to some degree share with such regimes an attitude of 'we know better than you what is best for you'". Was there some other message, private or CISmail, that crossed the line? I am too junior a sysop to have much notion of what remedies there are for such things – CISmail me a copy of what you have in mind and I will ask around. –Doug

Hi, Todd– In reviewing past messages again, I see my comment about your original use of "rationalization" was unwarranted, for which my apologies. Somehow I had remembered it as applying to those of us arguing with you, while the wording you used actually suggests you were talking about your midnight blasters. Aside from that one remark, my previous message stands. –Doug

Todd Like Doug, I too try not to break the law, even if such laws are not really enforced. Case in point, the Sawtooth Mountains in Idaho were my favorite collecting locality and are one of the very few loalities in the US (even the world) where an interested collector has a chance of finding a nice specimen of smoky quartz and topaz and aquamarine. Yet this locality was closed by the decision of the local Forest Service office because a few pro-wilderness people complained about the supposed impact on the wilderness area. The FS made no attemps to talk with mineral collectors about their interests and feelings, in fact they tried hard to discourage any input from us. The actual, impact on this Wilderness area is not really measurable; collecting here you can only remove the minerals from the scattered exposed cavtities–breaking rock digging etc. is useless because it is hard granite with scattered cavities. Most people can't even tell the rock has been touched by a collector. And whether strong environmentallists and strong "pure-Wilderness" people believe it or not, it is legal to collect in Wilderness areas as a hobby-recration activity, and is allowed in most Wilderness areas if there have been no problems or complaints. Unfortunately, you are wrong about the laws being enforced. They are being enforced. When it was still legal to collect in the Sawtooth Mtns. the Forest Service ticketed two individuals. They issued the tickets because the collectors "had too much material for their own use, it obvioulsy was for commercial purposes." This was based on the Forest Ranger's own feeling, not knowing anything about what collectors would want or personally use. In the few months after the $150 tickets were issued, it became clear that the Ranger thought we had no use for more than one or two crystals each from the Sawtooths. The two individuals who were ticketed were going to court to fight it, but both were college students, one from Tempe, AZ and one from Seattle, and they finally just paid the tickets because they couldn't afford to fight. The Forest Service also had reports that there were specimens from the Sawtooth Mtns being sold at Gem & Mineral Shows. This was part of their reasoning to close the area to collecting; afterall, if their is commercial collecting, it is always better to close it entirely, thus keeping out the honest personal collector (but this doesn't stop the dishonest commercial collector who already knows commercial mining of minerals in a Wilderness Area is illegal.) Second case, the Forest Service with federal marshals raided the home of commercial collectors and confiscated smoky specimens from the Smoky Bear Claims on the White Mountain Wilderness in New Mexico. Apparently the federal marshals also talked with many other mineral dealers who had specimens from the locality, and reports say specimens were confiscated from these dealers. This case was finally resolved before it went to courts when the Forest Service realized they had no case because the collectors had asked and been granted permission to collect (even though the FS probably weren't considering commercial specimen mining at the time). It is presently legal to collect a "few" specimens for personal use at the locality. I love to field collect minerals, study the geology, study the mineralogy and enjoy myself at these localities. I live for this, I don't want to find a new hobby and there is no need too. I hope to be able to continue collecting on public lands. There is no good, sensible reason to stop it. There is no harm done (with the exception of a few individual sites where some controls are needed) and the hobby (and even the commercial) collecting of minerals by the amateur provides valualbe (aesthetic, monetary, and scientific) specimens to museums, schools, etc. It contributes a large amount of knowledge to the science of mineralogy and geology, and contributes to the specimens and knowledge that the public sees and learns at museums and colleges around the nation. Lanny