#PAR for Video Use
11 messages in this thread
To anyone in TV land with experience in the area of extensive video use of the
PAR –
I'm about to purchase a TBCIV and a second Micropolis 2217A to use in the
editting of a 1/2 hour cable channel show. The footage will be shot on SVHS (a
Panasonic AG455), then output to Beta SP for final editting and the addition of
a sound track.
> Is the PAR expected to support sound anytime in the near future? (Anyone
with a clearer crystal ball than mine – I've heard this has been "in the works"
for more than a year)
> Will the PAR support the swapping out of additional physical drives (a
maximum of two at one time) that are attached when the material recorded on
them is required? (My guess would be that, if they are all properly formatted
using the PAR, this should work fine)
> What is the general experience of live video capture to the PAR via the TBC –
is the quality good? What factors, if any, can be controlled by the user in
determining quality? (I guess quality is always in the eye of the beholder. .
.)
> For those who have used the PAR completely for video, what is the capacity of
a Micropolis 2217A drive in total minutes of video?
TIA
Bob Weil
The only way to use the PAR at this time with audio is with a third party
product called RAZOR PRO, and, soon Premier 4.0.
I'm not sure the idea of swapping the PAR drives out, by switching the cabling,
is very practical as it is in DOS. I believe you would need to init the drives
each time. best to check tis one out with Greg Pyros or Gus Grubba. What I
would do is have the Master and slave formatted then If I need more save the
*.ani files to the DOS drive and port them back to the PAR drive when needed.
Edit the segments together using the GPI trigger from your edit controller for
a frame accurate start of the next segment. I do this all the time here as a
routine operation in our beta edit suite. The biggest headache is the transfer
of the ani file and optimization but we usually set this up and do some editing
or just a coffee break during the edit session. Most of the time I have enough
PAR HD space not to have to transfer files though. I use the PAR quite often
for slomo and ping-pong effects. We are setup to take in Y/C video from beta
SP and back out YUV from the PAR. The quality has been approved as better than
the PVW-2650 DT (competitor) by two of our clients now. The competitor is now
considering getting a PAR for DT replacement, Pisses me off! <G>
Don –
Thanks for the quick response! I have both Razor Pro (with the new chip), and
Premiere 4, so I guess I'm all set – except the problem of keeping sound in
sync with all the editing changes on the PAR. Sounds like you do this in a
production environment – any suggestions on how to make this liveable?
Thanks again.
Bob
Par-NLE in a production environment? So far my plans do not include the
PAR-NLE for production video. I plan to use it for special effects only. I
really don't think the current state of systems is ready for smooth integration
and replacement for what I do with betacam SP editing in a traditional sense.
If I wanted to look into the NLE line I'd be looking at an AVID or Cube at this
time. The PAR is great but only for what it does best. It's not best for doing
everything. I have Premier 4.0 here but only because I got the demo version.
It's the full package but can't be resold.
Don,
In a previous message you said:
"Par-NLE in a production environment? So far my plans do not include the
PAR-NLE for production video. I plan to use it for special effects only. I
really don't think the current state of systems is ready for smooth integration
and replacement for what I do with betacam SP editing in a traditional sense.
If I wanted to look into the NLE line I'd be looking at an AVID or Cube at this
time. The PAR is great but only for what it does best. It's not best for doing
everything. I have Premier 4.0 here but only because I got the demo version.
It's the full package but can't be resold."
I would have to disagree with your assessment. We have a large number of
customers who are using the PAR as the basis of a non linear editing
system with RAZOR PRO. That is what we created RAZOR PRO to do. We have
everybody from game developers, TV commercial producers, short training
film producers, to feature film producers who are using this
combination. Those customers who are using RAZOR PRO and have used the
AVID system are absolutely bowled over by our higher image quality and
speed. Although the PAR is not able to have more than 2 drives on line
at a time many people have got around this problem by doing their
editing in 10 minute segments and we have users who have created 1 1/2 hour
movies with it. The AVID NLE system is going to set you back more
than $70,000, a $12,500 RAZOR PRO and PAR system is an extremely cost
effective and high quality solution.
If you are interested I am sure the dealer we set up in your area could
give you a demonstration of the abilities of this combination.
Jamie Carr
in:sync
Jamie:
What are you doing up at this hour of the night? Get some rest! :^O <yawn>
Greg Pyros
Greg,
"What are you doing up at this hour of the night? Get some rest! :^O <yawn>"
Catching up on some email. It's not easy fitting it in in the normal
day.
I'm in England right now after just having been to CEBIT in Germany (which
was a great show for us.)
Are you coming to NAB ? We will on booth S233.
Jamie Carr
Hi Jamie:
I don't mean for you to take offense or should I say be on the defensive at my
assessment of the curent state of the art in Par end NLE. So you have a better
idea of how I came to this conclusion here is some background:
I have had three in house demos that surfaced many shortcomings of the
individual NLE systems for our post facility. The systems were AVID, Media 100
and IMIX Cube. As you know, I also have the PAR with ver 1.5 software and TBC
IV. The current system allows for maximum compression ratios of 15 or 17 to 1
on video frame grabs as an imported Y/C signal with export back to video at
best of betacam component (CAV). It would be better if we could do CAV input
and be able to compress at 7:1 which seems to be the figure most professionals
are striving for in true broadcast betacam SP component editing with NLE
systems. Additionally, only recently has the NLE industry been adopting their
NLE systems for CAV. Most have been composite and Y/C to date. PAR is at best
Y/C.
Another major problem of integrating the PAR system as an NLE package is the
storage capacity. This is really a major issue in all NLE systems today.
Because of this storage issue everybody I know using the NLE systems do only
short segments on NLE and then edit them together in a linear editor. If the
PAR had some way to easily integrate it into MY editing system, such as RS-422
emulation control protocol, it would go along way to rasing it's NLE ststure in
my opinion for some lower end video posting such as beta industrials not
specing CAV in the contract. Usually the JPEG artifacting is tolerable at 3/4
SP or lower format output but if the distribution is beta SP CAV we/ clients
notice a "PAR hit" when it is used for video special effects. When the beta SP
is Y/C recorded the PAR inserts are hardly noticeable.
Additionally, I have been trying to catch every thread regarding the Razor PRO
product and it's maturity. I do plan to obtain it when certain other factors
fall into place. These factors include faster PAR drives for better frame
grabbing compression ratios, better control over the PAR in a video post
operation. And, some good 3D DVE transitions that give it the appearance of
something more like the Alladin by Pinnacle. As for sound, well, I think you
need to put together a turn key system that has been tested by you and then it
could be installed without further development and testing by the end user.
Many threads have delt with the integration of RAZOR PRO and some bug fixes
etc. At the moment I don't have the time to experiment with something that
doesn't appear to fly by pushing forward on the throttle.
Currently the PAR does fine for what I am doing. I do think it needs just a
bit more before it is ready for full NLE and competing with products like Media
100, Imix Cube, etc. in this industry.
As for Premier 4.0, I still haven't loaded it yet. I'm waiting for the MCI
drivers from DPS for windows. Actually, my traveling schedule has been too
hectic lately to concentrate on a new piece of software. As I said, I only
picked it up because it was too good an offer to refuse. I only intend to
dabble with it to see if there are any possibilities here. I could have bought
your product but the price of the Premier 4.0 was <10% of Razor Pro with chip.
The decision was just economics.
>>If you are interested I am sure the dealer we set up in your area could
give you a demonstration of the abilities of this combination.
Who is this dealer? I should pay them a visit. If he is in this area why
hasn't he contacted me? I'm sure you would have sent him leads as I had you
fax specs to me some time ago and inquired about being a dealer for your
product myself. Many dealers (in this area) don't actively sell low margin
products. They passively sell them meaning the products are there if you want
them, The dealers know very little about them, how to demo them nor what the
bug fixes are. Although I don't actively sell hardware and software either, I
at least know thoroughly the products I do sell and can offer tech support on
them all.
Robert,
I'm also considering buying a TBCIV. I was wandering, have you done much
shopping around for the best price? If so, can you recommend a source?
Michael B.
Michael –
Funny you should mention that – I just plunked down my dime for a TBCIV from a
place here in So Cal. I would normally buy mail order to get the lowest price
and save the tax, but I got them to come down to $799, plus tax (7.25 percent).
For you, they might forego the tax, but replace that charge with shipping.
The salesperson I've been dealing with is Steve Slade at Metrovonics, Inc. His
number is (714) 827-4580. They will also order the PAR for anyone who needs it
– not sure what the price is.
Bob Weil
Thanks for the info Robert!
Michael B.