#LenZFX and fields?!
28 messages in this thread
Has anyone successfully got fields to work with LenzFX? I can't get anything to
render with a field effect. I keyframed an omni light and assigned the LenZFX
flare to it. I also keyframed an object to move similarly in the same camera
view. But no matter what, when rendering, the flare is stuck in one place,
while the object is properly field rendered.
Am I missing something? Or does Digimation not work with video output much (I
bought MAGIC from them, and it has never worked with fields either).
Jim
Jim
>>Has anyone successfully got fields to work with LenzFX?
Not I. I was just zipping up a project for DavidA with the same questions. My
flare moves, but not with fields. I hope we're both missing the same thing. We
shall see.
JB
>Has anyone successfully got fields to work with LenzFX? I can't get anything
to >render with a field effect. I keyframed an omni light and assigned the
LenZFX >flare to it.
I always render to fields, and this past weekend I used both the Flare and the
StarLight routines and they rendered correctly to fields. Flare I used on a
SpotLight that arced across the screen, and it looked great. Starlight I used
on a broadsword model (by brightness) as it rotated.
At least they LOOKED okay — usually I can tell during the recording whether
something is in fields or not. I suppose there's always the possibility that,
even though I specified fields, that the resultant TGAs were actually rendered
to frames, but it doesn't sound like that's your problem. The animations sure
looked smooth on tape, though.
Jim,
LenZFX automatically detects whether you are rendering to fields or frames and
adjusts accordingly. However, just as an aside, any post image processing will
always look better in frame mode, just ask Steven Spielberg <g>. Especially if
you have a lot of things moving around at very high speeds.
Aaron
>However, just as an aside, any post image processing will always look better
in >frame mode, just ask Steven Spielberg <g>
Is this really true? I'd sure like Gary to comment on this, as my
understanding was that it was nearly ALWAYS better to use fields (the exception
being a still or some image held for a period of time). Isn't the animation
smoother this way, or am I wasting my rendering time?
I think that Aaron's point was that, if you're post-processing an image that
was rendered in field mode, you've got to be using a filter that knows about
fields in bitmaps (which almost no filters do). That's why LenZFX (and our own
IXP's) uses the KFScene… all the field information is easily accessible
there.
Of course, it IS always best to use fields when rendering to videotape, since
that's the way video works. It's just that sometimes, under certain
conditions, it's impossible.
– G
>> However, just as an aside, any post image processing will always look
better in frame mode, just ask Steven Spielberg <g>. Especially if you have a
lot of things moving around at very high speeds. <<
Could you clarify why this is, Aaron…? Thanks.
Paul S.
There are several differences in 3DS from an IPAS viewpoint when rendering in
fields or frames, but it basically all boils down to one difference. When
rendering in fields mode, 3DS will actually render say frame 1 at the even
scan-lines, then reposition all the meshes in the keyframer and then make a
second pass rendering at frame 1.5 for the odd scan-lines. These two images
will be composited into one final frame. This is why if you look at one image
rendered in field mode it will actually look a little offset from line to line.
And when you do a freeze frame on a VCR that is playing a field recorded
animation it will "jiggle". The theory goes that field rendering is smoother
than frame rendering because video will make two passes for each image, one the
even scanlines and one the odd scanlines. However, using video output devices
that can operate more quickly than PAR, you actually get 60 fields instead of
30 fields, and thereby reduces the jitter. It's really all a matter of
personal preference and what output hardware you have available to you. But if
you can work with 60 fields, rendering to frames, it will look better.
Aaron
>>>The theory goes that field rendering is smoother than frame rendering
because video will make two passes for each image, one the even scanlines and
one the odd scanlines. However, using video output devices that can operate
more quickly than PAR, you actually get 60 fields instead of 30 fields, and
thereby reduces the jitter. It's really all a matter of personal preference
and what output hardware you have available to you. But if you can work with 60
fields, rendering to frames, it will look better.<<<
My understanding is that the PAR does 60 fields per second. And in video 2
fields make up one frame. When doing any animation to video tape I think field
rendering is smoother than frame rendering, especially for fast moving objects
or those close to the camera.
You all are making this field thing more complicated than necessary. Tim,
you're pretty close to the truth on this. The real reason that fields are
smoother than frames in video is because the motion is more finely divided in
time 60 increments rather than 30 increments per second. As in the case of
some computer video, it's 15 increments per second and this has a real jerky
motion. All NTSC video output devices, including the PAR and lower end devices
will output 60 fields per second. This is an NTSC standard. The fields are
interlaced as you know. To output only frames signifies that the video would
be non-interlaced and this will not display properly on NTSC monitors. 3DS only
handles the rendering at either 30 increments per second or 60 increments per
second. It does not actually generate scanning beams for display as this is the
crux of the analog video process. Actually, I think 3DS generates the picture
in chunks in the digital process but I might be wrong on this. To achieve the
smoothness the 60 increments or pictures must be interlaced into one frame or
picture. As the picture is sampled in the output device the signal is in sync
with an electron beam in the display monitor and the end result is that first
one picture is displayed (odd field) then since the persistance of the picture
tube holds the first field while the second field is drawn with just a bit of
displacement from the motion 1/60th of a second later. When we watch this
image on the screen the percieved motion is 60 pictures per second while the
actual picture frame rate is 30 per second. This was done mainly to keep the
bandwidth of the video signal to a minimum to to conserve the radio spectrum
and maintain a reasonable cost in the video equipment technology.
I would suggest all of you get a good primer on how video is constructed from
the viewpoint of the electron beam so you have a better understanding of the
entire process. For kindergarten starters try reading chapter 5 of 3D Studio
Tips and Tricks Series: TECHNICAL TIPS by Michele Bousquet. pages 67 and 68.
Beyond this try "The Life of an NTSC Video signal for 1 Second" by JVC. or
Today's Video by Peter Utz. Now if you're really getting into this you can
graduate to the Television Engineer's Handbook by Benson and Whitaker. See ya
next year <BG>
>>>You all are making this field thing more complicated than necessary. Tim,
you're pretty close to the truth on this.<<<
I'm not up on the technical stuff, but I learned all about 60fps when I got my
Video Toaster in 1990. The Amiga was great for its NTSC compatibility.
>>>Actually, I think 3DS generates the picture in chunks in the digital process
but I might be wrong on this.<<<
I noticed 3DS renders the odd fields then the even fields, or the other way
around, after thinking 3DS was rendering the same frame twice.
I'm late on this one. As a dealer who actually dare's to delve into such
things… I think your efforts towards LenzFX are tremendous. This is the most
killer, cool IPAS routine yet. We're rendering wow grade stuff for demo's with
it for an upcoming user group meeting.
On behalf of the dealer channel, thanks.
i think you have your imformation backwards , it better in field than frames.
SE to AO >> i think you have your imformation backwards , it better in field
than frames. <<
That was why I thought it was curious why Aaron said Steven Spielberg
preferred frames to fields for post image processing. I understand how
fields/frames work, I just want to know what he meant. Aaron?
Paul S.
Paul:
>> That was why I thought it was curious why Aaron said Steven Spielberg
>> preferred frames to fields for post image processing. I understand how
>> fields/frames work, I just want to know what he meant.
I'm just guessing, but since StevenS works mainly on the big screen in film,
which does not have fields, he would prefer it to video fields.
Greg Pyros
Spielberg… film vs. video… frames vs. fields…
Doh! :-0 (Homer Simpson sound)
Thanks,
Paul
Paul:
>>>> Spielberg… film vs. video… frames vs. fields…
>> Doh! :-0 (Homer Simpson sound)
<g>
Greg Pyros
Hi, I have successfully rendered fields with every effect available in LenZFX.
FYI. bill
what is LensFX? Whats it do and who makes it? Is it any good?
Thanks, Andrew G.
LenZFX is distributed by Digimation, and written by Aaron Ostler.
At it's most basic, it is a re-working of the Yost Group Disk #1, but 1000%
better.
At the moment it does four types of things:
Aura: This is like the glow routine from disk #1, you can make an object glow
on different parameters, such as: by edge, by object, hue, and so forth.
Flare: The creates a lens flare, though just saying that doesn't do it justice.
You can simulate the sun, headlights, all sorts of stuff.
Starlight: This produces little twinkles of light, you can set it up similar to
aura.
and lastly:
Blur: The blurs an image to simulate a focusing camera.
the entire package is VERY user definable and extremely versatile, plus it has
one of the coolest IPAS interfaces around.
I wanted this routine badly since I first saw it right before it was officially
released a couple of months ago and finally plunked down my money last week.
Now I am a aura and flare-happy fiend.
I believe Digimation is having a special and selling it at $295 ($100 off reg.
price). I don't know when it ends.
LenZFX is one of the great routines by Aaron Ostler and Gary Gosha. It is
similar to all the lens effects that were on Yosts' disk one, with some great
improvments! Digimation carries it. Call them for details. 18008544496.
bill
Bill,
Let me clarify one thing for the listeners out there in Studio land.
Digimation "distributes" a line of 3D Studio plug-ins (& video tape training
materials), as does Schreiber Instruments, Pyros, HSC, Positron, etc.
While they will sell direct, their offerings are ALSO made available through
many of the multimedia dealers. In addition, a number of dealers might even
provide check or credit terms and shipping to their users, vs. immediate credit
card or COD payment required by most of the distributors.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin, Weeelll! I forgot that you mentioned you would be carrying IPAS
routines as well. I didnt intend to favor Digimation. I simply have dealt
with them for IPASes. Sorry if you felt slighted. Next time I answer a
question like that I will mention several sources then tag on an eg:. Bill
Bill,
Not slighted, really. I just think that users desiring the product
shouldn't be crowded into a "sole source" scenario that ain't true. But I
admit I'd like a bigger piece of the pie, and have made the commitments to
deserve it <g>! Now if I could only compete with the da!n bookstores on 3DS
books.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
*** Now if I could only compete with the da!n bookstores on 3DS books. ***
It is tough to compete with Crown Books and Bookstar. And unless you are able
to do a large volume business it will get old Schlepping those heavy packages
around!
Kevin:
FWIW, Your commitment is obvious, your support here is top quality.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
But I admit I'd like a bigger piece of the pie, and have made the commitments
to deserve it <g>!
__________________________________________________________________
So, send me a catalog or a listing of what you offer. Let's do business!
Bob
>>IPASses & stuff…
Kevin,
What is your phone number? I am getting ready to make some major purchases
(i.e. outfit a lab at work). Do you deal in hardware too, or just software? I
need 4-6 machines, network-ready, with all the fixings.
JKJ
Jim, I haven't had any problems with fields and LenzFX but you are correct
about Magic. I've always got to render the magic by itself to frames and
composite them back in. Good luck though.
DM