#user group buyout
30 messages in this thread
I was wondering if anyone has ever seriously considered a use-group buyout of
Commodore-Amiga.
I feel that an action such as this could greatly enhance our systems, as well
as the reputation of Amigas in general.
Any supporters??? This is not as difficult as it sounds. It could be
accomplished in a matter of months, with proper organization.
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Steve Glover
Please explain…. A use-group buyout????
-Jonathan
The user groups worldwide, coordinated. It would simply be a buyout. It
happens all the time on Wall Street…
Commodore does about $1B in annual sales (could be somewhat off, but that's the
ballpark). There are maybe 3 million Amiga users out there. We'd all have to
pitch in about $5-10K to buy the company, aside from the huge (and controlling)
blocks that Mr. Gould has and that he presumably would not sell.
Sorry. Nice idea, though. Let's just wait six months and then buy IBM with
our lunch money.
Controlling stock is all that's needed. Mr. Bahamas has only about 20%.
It gets easier… hell, Northwest Airlines did it WITH THEIR EMPLOYEES!!!
Commodore is about 1/10th the size of NW.
Steve,
Northwest Airlines is totally owned by Al Checchi and Gary Wilson, an
assortment of investors and banks, and by KLM Airlines. The associated
leveraged buyout debt by these owners weighs heavily on the financial
stability of the company.
The employees are indeed trying to secure an ownership role (50%) and a
restructuring of the long term debt but the cost is not cheap. Almost one
billion in wage concessions is the price of our effort – and it is being
opposed by management. The ownership, that is – not the concessions.
The employees at TWA did succeed at wrestling control of their company
away from Carl Icahn, after he stripped much of the cream away and the
employees had taken hugh concessions (almost 50% of their compensation
over three years).
Leveraged buyouts are hopefully a thing of the past for they transform a
healthy company into an anemic shell. May the Michael Milkens, Icahns,
etc, all rot in hell!
Thought you'd like to know.
Stew Bloemer //
via AutoPilot \X/ AMIGA!
Forgive me, I should have been more technical.
That is correct, NW is "Privately" owned, or it was until a couple of years
ago. However, my point here is controlling stock. Not domination.
Shoot, I'd be happy just making waves at a shareholder's meeting. Not just to
make them, but for some real quality on spec's of new Amiga products.
Of course, I can always just migrate to a RISC platform and ignore cost
effectiveness. The old adage, "if you're gonna buy, buy quality first" may be
my solution.
Sounds great, Steve, but I don't think it could be done. Commodore is a
bigger company than that! Someone, a year or so ago, wanted every Amiga
user to purchase a few shares of Commodore stock – just enough to be
eligible to vote at an annual shareholders' meeting. Then, they could
either go themselves, or sign over their proxies to a trusted member of
the group. I thought that sounded plausible, but nothing ever came of it.
Besides, the meetings are always held in the Bahamas – not just really
easy for the average Amiga user to attend.
—Betty
An idea I've had for a few years is this, and it might actually be
practical.
I propose that users groups start buying Commodore stock in small blocks.
They can hold fund raisers, etc. The neat thing is that they actually might be
able to make money from their investment.
Then the users groups sign over, before the stockholders meeting or any
type of stock vote, their vote from their block to a central organization.
This central organization would then be able to hold a large block of the vote
and would send a representative to the stock holders meeting, no matter where
Gould holds it. This rep. would then be able to bring up the concerns and
complainst of the users (not all, just the more important ones) and would be
able to represent the users in the voting.
It is not feasible to buy out Commodore, but this method might at least
gain us, the users, some representation.
Comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Flames? Let me know how you feel.
Todd, it sounds great. But most user groups that I know are barely
managing to stay alive. They don't have the money to buy stocks. Neither
are many of them set up to manage such an investment if they could afford
it.
—Betty
I am the president of a small Amiga Users Group so I know what you mean about
lack of funds. But with a few fund raisers and if the group's bought the stock
a small piece at a time. Heck, right now it's down to $4.90 a share. If the
central organization actually helped the users groups buy the stock and gave
information, etc. It might work.
Of course, C='s stock is down in the cellar these days, so the user groups
could could maybe get some stock.
I hadn't noticed your name here in a long time. Good to see you.
Yes, most user groups could probably afford a FEW shares of stock at
the current price, I suppose, but in whose name? Who takes care of
them? Who decided when to buy and sell? Lots of ramifications. And
aren't most user groups non-profit organizations? Would that matter?
For what it's worth, two newsletters, Value Line and Zweig, recently
recommended *shorting* Commodore at $5. Shorting a $5 stock is betting things
are going to get much worse.
C='s pretty good at pulling financial rabbits out of hats, but this might not
be the time to buy their stock. Rob.
Well, my father's with Northwest Airlines. I saw the company go private
through an employee buyout.
But maybe you're right… consumers shouldn't take charge of their own
affairs… it's too democratic!
The idea sounds great – but I just don't think it is possible, considering
the way Commodore stock is distributed, and considering the wealth of most
Amiga owners.
—Betty
Betty,
Not trying to be difficult here, but *exactly* what is good about this
idea?
-mark=
Drivin' on Otto Pilot
To anyone who thinks a "buyout" of Commodore is possible: Irving Gould owns
20% of the company, with aroudn 6,600,000 shares of stock; institutional owners
hold about 18% with 5,600,000 shares; insider owners (company officers) own 5%
of the stock with 850,000 shares. Just to match Irving Gould, you would have to
plunk down $33 million for a matching 6,600,000 shares…and either convince
the institutional owners that you would make them more money, or plunk down
another $27 million to counter their shares. That's $60 million ($60,000,000)
that you'd have to come up with.
Add it up and it is 43% of the total shares issued that is owned by these three
groups (Irv, institutions & officers). About 40% of Commodore's stock is
outstanding (for sale), so there is only 17% held by individuals/minor
companies.
If you can actually get the $60 million, let me know and I'll tell you your
other problems (like getting the SEC's permission to use the stockholder list
as a mailing list; convincing the SEC that you're qualified to run the company
and handle a hostile takeover; etc.)
Besides, as bad as Irv is, I'd rather have him that have Commodore run by a
<shudder> committee.
-Chas
[NOTE: All corporate and financial information was obtained through
CompuServe's IQuest gateway. The COMPANY ANALYZER provided the appropriate SEC
filing information.]
COMMODORE INTERNATIONAL LTD
Ownership Detail
Shares
Owner Name Location Held
—————————— —————- ———– GOULD IRVING
CANADA 6,595,338
Shares Rank Owner Name
Rel Held —- —————————— — ———–
1 RATTIGAN THOMAS J D 500,000
2 ALI MEDHI P 300,000
3 SPEYER HARALD M O 35,700
4 SPIERS DAVID R AF 6,334
5 WEYMAN BRIAN C VP 3,000
6 SELIGMAN RALPH D D 1,000
———–
Totals for 6 owners: 846,034
Institutional Owners (SEC Form 13-F):
Shares Rank Owner Name
Held —- —————————— ———–
1 WISCONSIN INVESTMT BOARD 1,394,400
2 WELLS FARGO INST. TR NA 475,900
3 U S BANCORP 414,900
4 SHEARSON LEHMAN BROTHERS 410,000
5 QUEST ADVISORY CO 375,900
6 WILSHIRE ASSOC INC 328,500
7 CALIF PUBLIC EMP. RET. 260,312
8 KILLEN GROUP INC 233,824
9 MACKENZIE FINANCIAL CORP 196,400
10 COLLEGE RETIRE EQUITIES 188,900
11 MERIDIAN BANCORP INC. 171,607
12 PINNACLE ASSOCIATES LTD 155,300
13 FIRST INTERSTATE BANCORP 142,400
14 LIEBER & CO 111,600
15 MELLON BANK CORPORATION 96,154
16 CALIF STATE TEACHERS RET 88,900
17 PENN MUTUAL LIFE INS CO 84,500
18 JACOBS LEVY EQUITY MGMT 70,900
19 RUSSELL FRANK CO INC 63,800
20 OPPENHEIMER MGMT. CORP. 55,000
21 AMERICAN NATL B&T/CHICAG 54,000
22 COLONIAL MANAGEMENT ASSC 31,500
23 REGAL ASSET MGMT CORP 30,000
24 MANUFACTURS NTL-COMERICA 28,800
25 BEAR STEARNS & CO. INC. 26,500
26 SPEAR, LEEDS & KELLOGG 21,219
27 AKT ASSOCIATES L P 20,000
28 CHEMICAL BANKING CORP. 19,371
29 NATL WESTMINSTER BK PLC 17,500
30 BANKERS TRUST N Y CORP 13,200
31 WOOD STRUTHERS&WINTHROP 12,500
32 AVATAR INVESTORS ASSOC. 12,300
33 IBJ SCHRODER BANK & TR 10,000
34 BROWN, ALEX & SONS INC 4,000
35 ALLIANCE CAPITAL MGMT 3,200
36 PAINEWEBBER INC. 2,600
37 MUTUAL OF OMAHA FD MGMT 2,500
38 BANC ONE CORPORATION 1,000
———–
Totals for 38 owners: 5,629,387
Market value (in $millions): 40 as of 31-Dec-92
The Wisconsin Investment Board? I wonder which institution they represent –
perhaps the UW Madison.
I don't know (re: Wisconsin Investment Board). It piqued my curiosity, too.
That's a lot of shares they hold (and have held). Most of the others are
minor.
I didn't do a complete check on CBM, as I don't have any cash left to invest
(most of mine is in mutual funds, not volatile stocks), but I'm considering
putting some in CBM. Some of the moves that they have made in the recent past
as well as what their technological outlook seems to be really intreagues me.
Might make a buck or two.
-Chas
Since I haven't got $60 million, maybe I'll just take it upon myself to
show _one_ other person or company the benefits of owning an Amiga.
If each of us who already own at least one Amiga can get another one sold
in to the marketplace this year (particularly in a business or
home/business environment), we might be able to give CBM what _they_ need
to support the machine more completely.
JMHO
Nope, I would never support it. In fact, if this fantasy would ever come
true we would quickly get out of the Amiga business all together.
I am an Amiga dealer, and I doubt you would find many direct Commodore
dealers wishing that a user group would take control of the company. Can
you spell disaster? I can.
-mark=
Drivin' on Otto Pilot
So are you saying that Commodore Amiga is doing a superb job…?
Most dealers I know are being nickled and dimed to death as it is.
I didn't say they were doing a super job. I think they are doing a better
job than most give them credit.
You have to remember that Commodore Business Machines does *not* control
the purse strings. We get good solid support from Commodore.
Remember once again that *most* Amiga dealers are not direct dealers.
-mark=
Drivin' on Otto Pilot
I have been watching CBM stock since Oct. '92. Back then I posted a plan to
breath new life back into Amiga. I was also trying to organize a buy out
enough to just buy 10%. That's about $33 Mil.
The only responses were Doubting Thomas's and pessimistic dealers.
When I say $33 mil everybody gets into a frenzy. If you can convince
investors that they can make a profit, 33 mil isn't anything today.
What CBM really needs to do is become a customer driven company. Right now, I
am trying to decide to buy a 4000 or invest that money in CBM stock. My broker
told me today that CBM is stretching there debt out over a couple more years.
I would love to shake up the board meetings myself. I can't wait to vote for
the new Board-of-Directors. Ronald B. Alexander is going to be out. He is a
joke at PR. I have written to him several times about a dealership and other
CBM information. I didn't even get the form letter that says thankyou for
inquiring.
My brother requested franchise info for Subway Sandwiches via and 800 #. He
got his information in two working days. CBM should look at there PR people.
Just let me know when and where. I'm in.
– via Whap!
Hell of an idea!! They have a killer product line and they seem to be sitting
on it like a canadian goose!
Doug….ON AMIGATERM….WHAT A DINOSAUR!!!!!
Commodore Express just sold me a CDTV for $299, direct. How does that make
you, as a dealer, feel. My local dealer is really seeing red
(figuratively). CBM seems to do quite a lot of things that would be
considered hostile to its own dealers.
Karl
How did you manage that? At that price, I'd be interested – just for the
grandchildren.
—Betty
Karl,
Believe it or not, I would rather Commodore sell direct to customers than
have Creative get 'super' deals from Commodore. 🙂
I would not have a problem with Commodore setting up like IBM and selling
directly to customers in areas where there are no Amiga Direct Dealers.
-mark=
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