#Don't be FOOLED
41 messages in this thread
I want to pass on some knowledege that I've learned the hard way (read
incredible cost-overruns)…
First, as a guy that bought an Apple ][+ many years ago because it did four
color (!) graphics, has been through to SVGA and 3D Studio on the PC, I have to
say that I have great respect for what can be accomplished with the Toaster and
Lightwave… but…
For those of you considering getting into this stuff with visions of creating
beautiful lightwave animations FOR PAY, don't be FOOLED by the ads that show
beautiful still images, or the NewTek demo tapes, and think you can do
animations like that for just a couple of thousand bucks…
You CAN do some amazing stuff with the Toaster, as long as you have enough $$$
and TIME…
To be realistic, in a commercial environment you need:
1) Amiga and Toaster (THIS is the "couple of thousand" part)
2) a 68040 accelerator card (without it, or even with a '030 card, you can
easily wind up spending an HOUR rendering time per frame (1/30 second!!) of a
moderately complex scene with SHADOWS and REFLECTIONS turned on. Can you spend
12.5 days waiting for a 10-second piece to render? If not, add a thousand-plus
$$$ to the system cost.
3) a single-frame videotape machine (e.g. Sony EVO-9650 for about
four-and-a-half grand). Sorry folks, renting time or farming
out frame-to-tape work won't cut if if you're doing the animations for $$$ and
you need it done NOW.
Don't get me wrong – the Toaster is truly amazing stuff. B*U*T you'll HAVE to
spend some significant bucks if you want to REALLY use Lightwave for animation
– despite what the demo tapes and ads may lead you to believe… don't be
mislead.
It's a lot like the VAR that walks into a business with a $999 PC saying "Hey,
you can completely modernized your business with this machine! Yes, sure you
may want to expand it a bit, but it's still a great value!! (Hint, the
"expanded price" is more like 6 thousand!)
Bottom line: Don't expect to buy a Yugo and run the Indy 500 with it…
Luke Montgomery
Well, Luke that may be true for you, but not for me.
I get by just fine doing LightWave anims 'FOR PAY' without owning a Single
Frame recorder. In most large cities, it is much cheaper to rent the
needed equipment than it is to make payments on a deck that will get
occasional use.
My system was purchased over the course of several years for around $7-8K.
Someone looking to buy the same equipment today could do it for less than
half that price. (Including all the extra 3rd party software add-ons.)
The Toaster – as part of an integrated system with 040, HDs, etc. – could
be better likened to a Formula 1 race car without tires, rather than a
Yugo trying to 'run the Indy 500'.
If you throw enough money at a Toaster system, it CAN perform with the big
boys. It is fortunate that you have to throw far less money at the Toaster
to get professional results than you do with any other platform.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. I also don't think the videos are misleading. I think it is the
buyers responsibility to research his/her choices. If you're going to be
spending a minimum of $3000 (a BASE Toaster system) for some hardware, you
should look for information in places besides just ads & promotional
literature.
Sorry, no intention to singe other Toasters with my flame about Toaster system
costs…
It just griped me a little after reading a LOT and doing a LOT of talking with
folks, none of whom emphasized the importance of having an '040, etc., etc….
for doing Lightwave without having to let the machine render for DAYS…
I just wanted to put up this flag about cost and expectations based on video
samples and ads (while I was waiting for my '030 system to finish another
51-minute-per-frame rendering >:-( )
By all means, the Toaster is a bargin (and that's based in 10 years of
broadcast television experience and 8 years of microprocessor system
background). Even more so when LW 3.0 comes out…
Don't get me wrong, if you need a REAL basic switcher with some digital
effects, and a CG that's OK (but ain't no Chyron…), and one of the best 3D
packages I've seen on a desktop system, then Toaster's the way to go…
Just remember, don't be misguided by the "all this for peanuts" hype…
Make sure your budgets include EVERYTHING if you plan to do a lot of
Lighwave…. or else plan on writing out some large checks as you stumble
along… waiting, and waiting, and waiting…
I'll be happy to pass on via CI$mail some hard won knowledge and some POSITIVE
recommendations for the TOASTER to anyone who's interested…
Keep on Toastin'
Luke
Luke: How do I benefit from your hard-won knowledge. I have been hesitating for
3 months over whether to buy a Toaster Workstation, and keep being pulled back
by the new stuff coming out for the PC? The more I read and listen to others,
the more confusing everything gets. Carl.
I'm going to have to look at the Revolution tape again because that's the
first thing I solidly saw of the Toaster. No dealers or Amiga shops
around here. But for now I almost have to agree with Luke that it was
misleading. I don't believe there was any adequate description of what
was needed for the Toaster to do what was shown – that in itself is false
advertising. (At least in my opinion) It's like selling a flashlight or
toy and not putting on the cover whether the batteries are included. The
Toaster (LightWave) being the flashlight.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Obviously, you don't follow the Multimedia claims made by vendors on other
platforms?
NewTeks ads were no more deceptive than those of any other multimedia
product.
You can't fault NewTek if YOU didn't do research beyond looking at their
promotional tape. . .
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
There was a fine print description at the end of the tape that clearly stated
what was needed for animations to be produced. If you were looking at a copy
perhaps that was left off. Or perhaps the complaining parties were so egaww
over the thing that the tape never got that far for all the rewind searches
etc.
I wasn't the one complaining . . .
I think NewTeks Revolution video is something to shoot for,
not to shoot down. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
From what I understand, the Revolution tape took 4 VCR's plus 4 TBC's to
produce. Now if your talking to a general Amiga audience and don't tell
them that – you've got a bunch of Toaster owners who later say EGAD!!
Unless they know this, or find this out first – and it shouldn't be
research that makes AT&T and Shell Oil Rich! It should be research that's
available to the common man/woman. Like here on Compuserve, and here on
this forum, which is NOW, where it is.
(Thank You, Thank You (taking a bow)).
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Funny, I heard it was done with one D-2 deck, but since most high-end
decks have the TBCs built-in, 4 decks is not really that much . . .
You could rent that for less than $1K/day.
Seems like any of these questions relating to the Toaster can be answered
BEFORE buying by using CIS, or reading any of a number of magazines (Video
Toaster User, Desktop Video World, AV-Video, New Media, etc.) devoted to
MultiMedia products. Total investment in research would be less than $50.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
As I'd said earlier, I'm in a small town. I rode to Findlay, Ohio to get
the Taped Demo (Revolution). Talked to the man there about the Toaster,
who didn't have anything – a camera shop – and he gave me a number to a
place in *I think* Troy, Ohio – called them, all he wanted was to charge
me lessons and tape my animations at charge per frame. I asked him about
the Toaster and of course, he loved it. Mind you I hadn't checked with
photographic outlets to find out just what a SFR runs for. I figured at
that time that a Single Frame VCR wasn't going to be too much over a
standard VCR. So, no longer are we considering a NewTek Toaster, a
Commodore Amiga or a computer item. Were getting into Photographics,
which is a Pandora's box in itself (speaking Hindsight 20/20).
When I saw Revolution it said 'all this for $2500' at the bee frame that,
I have to admit, sold me (trying hard not to speak as some ignorant
consumer – but finding out otherwise). I trusted NewTek. I trusted
Commodore when I bought the Amiga that they wouldn't mess me over later
like Atari tried to with their XL line after I bought the 800 and later
sold due to the XL line trying to drop my 800's price substantially.
I guess what your saying and is the bottom line, is not to place trust in
a company selling it's product and in a sense, to displace patriotism to
that product.
True, if I'd known then what I know now, there'd be no complaint, as is
your case. I'm not a videographer, just a 3d nut and enjoy creating my
own anims. I'm not a pro – just a beginner – I guess, a wannabe. I'll
work towards that end come hell or SFR!
Someday soon I will purchase that SFR and hopefully, if nothing else has
been hidden from me, I will be able to release these hot anims that
everyone else has been able too.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
An interesting thing I'd like to point out is that you're not grousing
about having to buy an Amiga to use the Toaster. I don't remember them
explicitly saying that you'd need an Amiga. Much less an accelerated 040
system and a big expensive hard drive to put your images on, if you really
wanted to get serious about 3-D. That alone could EASILY double the cost
of the 'Toaster System' but you seem to be willing to accept those
expenses as a matter of fact?
I would also like to point out that you DON'T need a SFR to create decent
looking anmations with the Toaster, only if you want to output at the full
24bits @ 30FPS will you need an expensive recorder.
Even some of your customers will be more than happy with your HAM
animations recorded straight to tape. With a DCTV, you'll get even better
results.
Oh well, that's all for now,
Keep On Toastin'
Eirk Flom
I already had the A2000 for quite some time beforehand and I knew the
Toaster was built for my system. So that's a moot point. Yes, I'm
working on that DCTV thing.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
At least you're not like me:
I bought the A3000, fully expecting to put a Toaster into it.
NewTek announced the Toaster at the FAUG meeting in Oct of 90 or 91 and I
found out then that 'NO, it doesn't work in an A3000'. I was crushed.
I had to wait a year before I felt confident enough to buy one and try
installing it. works fine now, though.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Yea, it'd be nice if they'd come out with something like the Toaster Cozzy
for the A4000 as well. Maybe someday Commodore will get it's act together
and act towards the benefit of Commodore users instead of their wallet
sizes by coming out with non-Toaster friendly systems.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
If the message I read in the AmigaUser forums about the NewTek preview
party at NAB is correct, I don't think the 4000 is going to need a Cozzy .
. .
(Now, it looks like I might need a 4000. :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. Welcome to the 3-D field.
(Steal my clients and you die, sucker! :^)
SUperMac Technology has been offering refunds, and announced this in several
mac week mags, because their Digital Film product had literature that made
claims that it could 'replace professional video equipment.' They lied, and
they are probably being forced to retract the ads and offer refunds, among
other consolation to their suckers, i mean users. This and every industry are
rife with types who thing\k their profit is more important than The Truth.
Amazing isn't it?
I hadn't heard of that. That's pretty funny.
I'm glad to see some people are taking advertisers to task for their
blatant mis-statements.
Thanks,
Erik Flom
Well, if someone doesn't hold advertisers resposible for their ads, it'll
just get worse.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
I think you misled yourself instead of someone else misleading you. As
with any artistic medium, it takes a lot of devotion and time to get it
right. Someone using Imagine, DCTV, and an Amiga 500 could create better
animations than a less talented individual with a $50,000 Toaster system.
It's all depends on how much time and energy you want to devote to it.
Mind you, I'm not bragging since I have all the artistic talent of a rock,
but I've seen other's do some fantastic stuff with very little resources.
//
\X/ John – K7KB (Who enjoys harrasing the vendors)
I think Luke has a point and a very valid one. As I mentioned earlier,
take a look at the Revolution tape and that points out clearly there is a
misleading quality there. One only makes judgement based upon the
information provided him/her. You cannot mislead YOURSELF. That's a
physical impossibility. I've been mislead myself on various things and it
has very little if nothing to do with artistic talent.
Only upon tapping into this base did I find that DCTV was practically a
hammer to the nail. You don't need artistic talent to drive a nail – it's
just a tool – and tools can get very expensive as Luke was implying.
Especially when you weren't aware you needed the hammer to hit the stupid
thing. So we end up taking money out of petty cash to buy the unexpected
we hadn't accounted for.
Sure I could probably use my head (kinda painful) or a ballbat but a
hammer is going to do a better job and a job it was built to do, and it
could do it more efficiently.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Rodney;
The call on NewTek being misleading with the Revolution Tape can be a
close call.
They do show a bit of pretty fine video hardware even if they don't
emphasize it importance to the project.
They have a right to expect people to know or learn what sort of hardware
is needed to do video work. The make "no bones" about what part of the
video suite the toaster implements.
-bill
The point of contention is that
>They have a right to expect people to know or learn what sort of hardware
is needed to do video work.'
I'm not so sure that is a right when selling a crossbread hardware utility
to the general Amiga audience. If even a 'right' at all, but I understand
your meaning as they expect you to know something of video.
The switcher is nice/neat/cool/awesome but I really wanted LightWave 3d.
Which is more computer oriented. If NewTek was targeting the Photographic
industry they'd direct the Main majority of their adds to photographic
magazines, and while a small percentage does in fact go to that, every
issue of AmigaWorld is plastered with Video Toaster.
If they say you can do this with $2500 then by G** you should be able to
do this with $2500!! That's my contention – speaking of which, Newtek has
been fairly quiet in this forum, as opposed to the welcome sight of ASDG
and Syndesis.
I'd welcome Newtek to explain this 'you can do this with $2500' (No bones)
mystery brought about by the voice of Ken Nordine (I believe).
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
I caught the fine print the very first time I watched "Revolution", and
immediately jumped on this forum to begin gathering all the info I could.
NewTek's approach is absolutely no different than every commercial you see for
a new car, etc. They're gonna paint their product in the most attractive light
possible, and I don't blame them. We, as consumers, are responsible for this
strategy, because we've demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the
most effective way to sell products. How?? By BUYING the products, of course!
Despite being a total Amiga illiterate a few months ago, I was able to put
together a decent Toaster studio at what I feel was a more than reasonable
total cost. If I had heeded advice from places like this on a more regular
basis, I'd have done it for even less, by not ending up with several pieces of
equipment that I can't effectively use! Anyway, I know it's frustrating to
encounter all the added costs, but that's the way things are, and I'm afraid
that's the way they're gonna stay. BTW, the ads for the Sunrize AD516 sound
really great, and the product sounds most affordable also. However, they don't
mention the fact that you'll need at least a 1 gigabyte hard drive to have any
practical hopes of getting much use out of their system. It's nothing to get
angry about, though………….
JERRY
Oh I'm not angry, it's just that I've got the studio but no recording
mechanism for the Lightwave anims, then I got to thinking about the course
of events and re-viewing the Rev tape – and went from there. Basically –
Wah! :>
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
True, the tools for DTV can get very expensive. But what I'm saying is
that it doesn't always have to be that way. If you are creative enough to
find different ways to use that tool, or use just the ones that are right
for you, then you can keep the cost's down. It's sounds like Luke didn't
research the subject of DTV to find out what could be involved, so in a
sense he did mislead himself. Sure the Revolution tape does look great,
but as we both know it's a demo tape to show off what can be done with a
DTV system, not how much it's going to cost or what else might be required
to do those kind's of projects. That is the responsibility of the person
getting into the field, not NewTek's.
//
\X/ John – K7KB (Who enjoys harrasing the vendors)
Right, but if NewTek is getting into the field itself, then why the heck
not tell the rest of us what the h*** we need to do the stuff they show us
we can do!!!! That's the whole point. As I said earlier, I don't intend
on making AT&T rich as well as Shell Oil calling and driving all over
*blanks* half acre trying to find all this stuff out, that's needed to
have a Desktop Video. Y'know, what half comes to mind is that these Amiga
Forums are probably worth ten-fold any toaster/DCTV/SFR/TBC/SFC/ADPro or
any other acronym they can think of – value in knowing what you have to
have in order to do what you want to do – it's not a problem in research –
it's a problem in availability of information to the general public.
It all comes full circle I guess. I'm glad I'm here and the BEST PRODUCT
I've ever seen on the Free Market Is AUTOPILOT!! Thank you Programmers.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Rodney, Excuse me for butting in here, but after reading this thread and seeing
the same things being said over and over without really going anywhere, I
decided to watch my copy of the Revolution tape to see what it really said.
Mine must be different than yours because it says you can "get started" for
just under $4000.00. It then goes on to say that a basic system uses a camera
for input and a VCR to record the output. It then says a more advanced system
adds a second camera. It then says to get full production you'll need to add
two more VCR's and an edit controller (and shows them in the picture as it is
saying this). At the end, in the edit scroll, it explains that the switcher
inputs must all be time base corrected and that to do 3D animation you need a
single frame capable VCR. Also, it says some features are only available with
Toaster 2.0 software (at that time not yet available) and the ubiquitous
"specifications subject to change".
It seems that even without any external research Newtek tells you all
you need to know in the Revolution tape (at least my version of it). With the
exception of the fact that they didn't tell you that time base correctors and
single frame capable VCR's are expensive, I think Newtek accomplished
everything that you are complaining about in the very "Revolution" tape you are
hitting at so hard.
Give your tape another listen/look and tell me if I got a different
version of the tape or not. I swear, they say $4000.00, not $2500.00, and they
tell you everything you need in addition to the Amiga/Toaster combination
either in the voice over during the tape or in the scrolling credits at the
end.
Sincerely, Terry Tabor
Right, yea, the part about the cameras and recorder are fine, that's
really not what I'm interested in. The part I was talking about was
showing the animation of the bee buzzing and other 3d anims and the guy in
the background saying 'I can do all this for $2500? Yes.
But yes, I rescanned my tape again, and caught that scrolling text just
last night on freeze frame – it says you must be single frame capable.
Kinda contradictory isn't it?
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Rodney, If what you say is true, then it is contradictory. But the version I
have, the voice over is completely different. During the segment you are
referring to (Telephone, Bee), my version has the voice over saying "I can do
this?", "Yeah!", "And this…", "And this…", etc… It doesn't mention price
at all in this section on my copy. The reference to $4000.00 is at the
beginning of the tape when it shows a Toaster Workstation. I guess the folks at
Newtek revised the tape and the $4000.00 includes the price for an Amiga.
Looking at my tape, I would say the biggest ommision in my opinion was
that they didn't mention that Lightwave is much faster with an accelerated
Amiga and at that time I don't think you could get a Toaster, Amiga, and
accelerator card for $4000.00 (although it would be easy today).
Although I don't agree with you in this case, I can sympathise with
you. When I bought my first Amiga (I'm up to three, now), an A500, I bought a
copy of Turbo Silver (predecessor to Imagine) with the belief that the
animations I created could be played directly off of the floppies I stored them
to. I was pretty disappointed when I found out otherwise. But I kept at it and
have learned my lesson. Difference is, mine was a $100.00 lesson and yours was
a $2500.00 lesson.
But don't despair. If you want to get pretty good full color animations
for not alot of cash, I heartily recommend DCTV combined with Scala MM200. From
what I've tried (and I've tried alot), Scala MM200 has one of the fastest
playback times. It even plays animations (in its own format, ANIM-32) directly
from harddrive, faster than the same animation would play from RAM in Anim-5.
That's my experience with large motion lots of movement animations.
Terry Tabor
Well, were kinda nitpicking here – I mean – were looking at a $2500 unit,
and supposing you have an Amiga and that it's what the 'voice-over' guy
has of course. 'I can do all this?'
I'll go over the stupid thing again and – wait a sec I'll play it
now—Thanks to AP –it's 'ALMOST LIVE'
First Voice: "Then when your ready, LightWave will animate your scene just
like this" (Chess – Queen moves)
First Voice: "Or like this." (Telephone turns and opens)
Second Voice: "Neat"
First Voice: "Or this" (Bee buzzing and swiveling head – adjusting eyes)
Second Voice: "Crazy"
First Voice: "Or this" (Tuesday night at the movies)
Second Voice: "Yea – and all this is included in the price of the
Toaster?"
First Voice: "You bet! It's each separate piece of production equipment
that you NEED to make real broadcast quality television. Combined into
one device, with one easy to use interface."
And that's pretty much all I have to say about the topic. I've gotten
psuedo support on my claim with the general concensus saying 'You should
have known better than to believe Newtek's word.'
The video, to be honest should have said 'You bet! With a Single Frame
Recorder, all your three dimensional animations can come to life and
present real broadcast quality results for television.'
Were talking 3d here – every image on that segment was Lightwave generated
– the first voice should at least mention a SFR.
Oh well, at least it's settled what was actually said. I blame myself
enouph – it's time for blame to also be portioned out.
Nuff' said.
-Rodney Massman * On AutoPilot in Beantown, The Buckeye State *
Yep, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if NewTek did a video showing how
the Revolution tape was done and what kind of equipment it would require,
as well as general price range. Then people would have a better
understanding of exactly what they are getting into. A good friend of mine
already has close to $35,000 invested in his Toaster/DTV system and he
keeps wanting more. Sounds like a serious addiction to me <g>.
//
\X/ John – K7KB (Who enjoys harrasing the vendors)
Thats why I love my Amiga Toaster sys. I have Alot of Compositional
Talents (I got atleast one good eye) but I can't draw fer @#$%.
I can model and render a PRETTY picture with LW though. And I never
thought I would be into animation, But thats my Latest FAVE.
Just wish I had the Talent for Original IDEAS, And halting TIME :^)>
….John
Hey, I see a pattern here. Are we all a bunch of closet artists that
can't draw a straight line by hand, but give us an electronic 3D version
of an Etch-A-Sketch and whole new worlds appear?
I got my Toaster on day -29 to do simple commercials for local cable.
Wondered who in their right mind would want to do this 3D stuff
(especially with all of the time and specialized equipment that I >knew<
would be needed), and so tried it. <He's hooked, he's hooked, his brain
is cooked>. Never did a single commercial. Oh, well, needed a new hobby
to absorb all of my time and spare change anyway. Beats the bars.
Anybody else get started this way?
~p
BTW people, I'm gone 5 days and you post 200+ msgs. Sheesh…. 8)
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
I like yer Chant <He's Hooked He's Hooked his brain is cooked>
I got started in 3D Long time ago in the Dark Ages of 3D on a Personal
Computer when Antic Released their CAD 3D software by Tom Hudson. Even in
Low Rez 16 colors I saw GREAT THINGS. Got an Amiga so I could do 4096
color 3D anims and Now I'm REALLY a 3D Junkie. I used to SLEEP…HONEST
I also started with Cad 3D on the Atari and I still think that program
whould have been ported to the Amiga. It was easy to learn, had a good
interface and made an excellent starter package for 3D. Of course now that
Tom's working on 3D Studio I doubt he'll have time to port it now. :^(
You still can sleep, the secret is to do it while you're waiting on
renders. Now if I could just keep from falling out of my chair when I nod
off…. :^)
Multi[ple machines rule out Sleep. I've currently got 3, tho one is a CDTV
set up simply as a CDROM. I also tend to do other things on the 3000 while
rendering as well. Like Writing Scripts or BBSing. Can't get away with
that on my souped up 500 tho with only 512k of Chip ram tho.
Thats ok, with 3D software even folks with the Artistic talent of a Rock
can do nice looking work. It may not be Earth Shatterringly Gorgeous but
you will be able to impress yer Friends and Neighbors hehehehehehehe
I consider myself fairly adept at 3D Fiddling but Please NEVER ask me
to draw something for you hahahahahahahaha. You'll get the Equivelant of
Cave Paintings from the Prehistoric age.
Hehe, well I do a mean stick figure, that's about the extent of my
artistic talent and I flunked finger painting in grade school <g>.
//
\X/ John – K7KB (Who enjoys harrasing the vendors)
Stick Figures eh??? Well maybe you could get a Shot on Liquid Televison.
After all there's a segment on there called "Stick Figure Theatre" which
is QUITE Entertaining. They usually do Clips of old Movies with the Actual
Dialogue from the Original Film with STICK Figure animation usually on
Lined Looseleaf paper. Recently I saw their version of "It's a Wonderful
Life"