#ImageMaster?
26 messages in this thread
Ben,
Here's your chance to overwhelm me. <g>
I bought a FireCracker 24 card from a friend. He used AdPro to display
pictures, et al, on it. He recommended same to me.
I've seen reference to an FC24 version of ImageMaster. I know the two
products compete.
The only thing I've seen on ImageMaster was the Apr 92 comparison in
Amiga World. My AP catalog indicates you've got a response here (not
surprising as it wasn't very complimentary), but I can't seem to download
it, so I assume it's gone. In ANY case, the article is over a year old
now, and both products have undoubtedly undergone improvement in the
meantime.
So, I'm asking for help on deciding which (if either) I should buy. For
that you need to know what I want to do, right?
Ok, I'm not much of an animator. I also have discovered that I absolutely
cannot draw with a mouse, though I'm pretty good with a pencil. 99% of
what I would do would be to simply display pictures (IFF, JPEG, GIF) on
the board. If ViewTek supported the FireCracker, I'd probably be ecstatic.
I'd like to display Spectrum 512 (Atari ST) pictures, as well, as I had an
ST for 5 years, and have access to quite a lot of them. I tried HamLab
and, while it displayed them, it didn't do a very good job of it. But
that's minor.
I MAY, at some point, get into 3D rendering on a hobby-only level. I
doubt I'll be buying single-frame-recorders and making tapes, but may play
around with making some pictures for my own amusement. I may also buy a
scanner (probably a hand scanner, because I'm not made of money) to scan
some of my artwork in, and will want to be able to touch up the scans,
though I would assume the scanner software would handle that. It might
also be nice to be able to change files from one type to another, for my
many ST-owning friends who have a hard time with JPEG, or whatever, but,
again, that's a minor detail.
I would welcome thoughts and comments.
Pat,
Thought I'd respond here as an unbiased owner of both products,
Imagemester/FC 9.5 and AdPro 2.1.0 and a FC 24. The best reason to get IM
over AdPro is it is a PAIN to go into the saver to save the image to the
buffer in AdPro when you want to see what modified pic looks like, esp.
when IM automatically puts the modified pic right into the Firecracker.
I don't see support for any Atari formats in either program, but I may be
wrong. I'm not sure what the Atari formats are? They both do have
support for various PC formats and relatively easy systems for added new
loaders when they are developed. IM can probably load more formats right
now tho.
Although IM/FC supports painting to the FC 24, I prefer to save the
image to RAM and use Light24. IM also has a lot more tools for modifying
pics. More than anyone could posibly mention in a breif message. Which
is better? My opinion is IM/FC by far.
If your looking for a cheap solution right now, I'm willing to part
with ADPro for the reasonable price of say $50.00 with all upgrade rights,
I even have the latest offer for the $50.00 ADPro 2.3 upgrade.
// .Cruising on AutoPilot
\X/
Mark,
Thanks for replying. Your insights are precisely the kind of thing I'm
looking for.
Your $50 ADPro offer is very tempting (especially as I'm currently out
of work), but I think I'll wait a bit to decide. I'll keep you in mind,
though, and definitely appreciate the input!
Mark, Atari images come in a few flavors. Degas images which are similr to
16 color Low Rez IFF's, Neo images almost the same, SPC's which are almost
a Ham type image still limited to 320*200 and PCS a format that Lexicor
came up with for 24 bit images. Only prg's I know of that handle any Atari
Pics on the Amiga is Hamlab,Multiview and I believe pixmate
Ok, thanks for the questions.
Imagemaster F/c works directly on the FC24. 9.51, the latest version as of
this coming Tuesday, hardly even resembles the Imagemaster that was in
that absurd AW review – it's head an shoulders more powerful. Imagemaster
F/c is the same as Imagemaster, except in runs on the FC24, btw.
Imagemaster can show stuff on the FC24, but doesn't allow you to edit on
it – you edit on Amiga mode displays. So there's the difference within our
product line re the FC24.
Imagemaster currently reads GIF, JPEG, IFF24, PCX, TIFF, DCTV, BMP, VISTA,
Amiga IFF ANIM5 animations, Autodesk FLIC animations Targa, RGB8, RGBN,
Color separations, PDS, FITS, SHAM, DHR, Rendition, DKB and a few others.
We do not as yet have the Atari image formats supported, but expect to
within about 30-60 days. We have samples of all the image formats and the
specs for them as well – that includes ANIM stuff as well so we'll have it
in a bit. 9.52 or 9.53 should be the upgrade with that. You get a coupon
for one free upgrade, just wait till I announce Atari support and then use
it.
Imagemaster can convert to many formats as well as read them; that's
usually nto a problem at all. In fact, if your conversions involve
rendering down to fewer colors (such as making a 256 color GIF out of a
24-bit image), then Imagemaster does a *superb* job of picking colors,
much better than any other package on the Amiga, and will write images in
a wide selection of formats (although not as wide a selection as those it
will read).
I can tell you with absolute confidence that IMagemaster is head and
shoulders the most powerful across the board image manipulation system
available for the Amiga. AdPro and ImageFX both have a few strengths where
they outshine IM, but conversly, Imagemaster is SO much more powerful than
those two in all other ways that there is very little valid comparison
that can be made. I will be ready with details if you have any questions
you want to delve into at that level. I want to make clear that I am NOT
indulging in "hype", I have the factual details to back up those
statements, and quite easily.
AdPro excells in supporting various hardware devices such as slide
scanners, film output recorders and so on. It's *really* good at that, and
we have almost nothing in that area (nor do we plan anything in that
area.. gotta leave them something to do… :^). There's really no other
reason to buy AdPro; nothing else it does of significance is done as well
as Imagemaster, in my opinion – and there can be no question that AdPro
offers far less features for more of your money. You can come to that
conclusion just by comparing them side by side.
ImageFX's major strength is, in my opinion, its user interface which is
excellent. Imagemaster and ImageFX do some image sharing, which is cool if
you have both. ImageFX offers a very nice implementation of the "magic
wand" popularized in Adobe Photoshop, and if that's key to your drawing
plans, then ImageFX is a very good *first* choice. They also support some
disk-memory stuff that allows you to handle images larger than available
memory, and again, if that's critical to your plans, ImageFX is where to
look, first. Imagemaster won't support larger-than-memory images until and
unless CBM provides VM in AmigaDOS. You *can* get disk memory support for
Imagemaste rwith aftermarket VM products such as GigaMem, but it's extra
cost.
Bottom line, going by what you said to me, is if you're after the widest
variety of operations, the most compatible file formats to read, and
direct support of the FC24, there really isn't any other choice than
Imagemaster.
If you have any further questions, I'll be happy to answer them, no hype
and as honestly as I know how.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Thanks for the response. Sounds pretty good.
I do have a couple of new questions that I hope aren't too obvious…
You mention ANIM5 animations as well as Autodesk FLIC. Do you mean that
I could actually display animations at full speed on the FC24? Also, does
your inclusion of DCTV mean that I could download a file that someone
uploaded as a graphic or animation for the DCTV and view it on my
FireCracker? I didn't know that was possible, I'm VERY interested.
I'm also pleased to note that you are working on Atari file formats.
These days it's fast becoming a forgotten computer. In addition to the
Spectrum 512 (probably the hardest, because of the scanline palette
changes), are you including the new Prism Paint (.PNT and .FLM) formats,
and possibly even the CyberPaint 2.0 .SEQ format (Catnap is STILL one of
my favorite animations)?
I have 17MB of memory, so I doubt that I'll be dealing with images
larger than memory (except maybe on the 1200). Ooh! There's a question.
I've both a 2000 with the FC24 and a 1200. If I buy the FC version of
ImageMaster, does that mean I couldn't use it to view GIFS, et al, on the
1200? Not a deciding factor, by the way, just curious.
I'm not clear what you mean by not being able to edit on the FC, so
that's probably something I don't know I need to do! <g> If you mean
touching up, how do you touch up a 24-bit display on a 16-color display,
and do it well?I do use separate monitors for the Amiga output and the FC
output (gotta have that flicker fixer for my WB display). I've never seen
Adobe Photoshop, either, so have no idea what a "magic wand" is.
It certainly does sound like it might be a good purchase for me. Please
bear in mind that I'm not buying next week. Next month, or the month
after, maybe, but right now I'm between jobs and these kinds of purchases
are on complete hold. I do appreciate your time and input, however.
Pat,
We don't do anything about displaying actual full-blown anims, no. We
*create* anims, is what.
Yes, you can D/L DCTV images, and animations, and convert them to any
other mode supported by the software (many… :^), viewing it on the FC24
is one simple possibility, you bet.
Regarding the Atari support, I know it's pretty broad but I'm not directly
involved with it other than having authorized the time and etc for it, in
other words I approve such things, I don't write 'em (usually). So I'll
punt on that; there are at least 10 formats coming, perhaps more (we
usually find a few, um, "extras" when we're concentrating on a particular
venue). When we're done, I'll announce them here.
Regarding the FC24 version, it *requires* an FC24 in the system. If you'd
like to use your copy of Imagemaster on both machines, then I'd *strongly*
suggest that you get Imagemaster, not Imagemaster F/c – it can also
display on the FC24, but image editing is done on Amiga displays. And When
you see how good your 1200 can look, you might end up selling that FC24.
And I'm NOT kidding. :^) Further, the FC24 version *requires* you to use
the _same_ monitor, not separate monitors – so if you're set on that
configuration, again, you need Imagemaster, not Imagemaster F/c.
You ask, "How do you touch up a 24-bit image on a 16-color display, and do
it well?" Good question, glad you asked that, etc. :^) You need software
that is *incredibly* good at reducing high color images into a low
colorspace; and that is a dead-on description of one important portion of
Imagemaster's display technology. It can be done, and we've done it.
No problem on the buying time – or even if you don't buy at all. Online
explanations have teh *very* nice side-effect of informing more people
than just the person asking the question(s); so ask away, someone always
benefits.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Yer Supporting Atari Image Formats????? Wowzers, so all those Disks of SEQ
and DLT Animation files I created in the Dark recesses of 16 colors can be
reborn and updated? Wowzers, There's a few of my old anims that I liked
ALOT, hope to see SEQ and DLT loaders and savers in the near future.
Yes, we're aadding extensive Atari image file formats.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
LOVELY, for now tho I'll be trading FLI's with my Atari owning Bud's since
most of em have Clones at work with VGA.
Ben,
Gee, every answer generates new questions! <g>
You say you don't display anims, but you create them. Perhaps I'm
totally missing the point, but why would you create an animation that you
then can't watch? Or, if you have to watch it in Workbench colors, why
create it on a 24-bit board?
Imagemaster will work on the FC? You don't HAVE to have the FC version
to access the FireCracker? You comment that the regular version requires
editing on Amiga screens, but I thought that was what you told me about
the FC version, so now I really have no idea what the difference is (other
than about $10). I TRIED using the same monitor, and hated it. My WB is
640×400 laced, and I will NOT put up with that flicker. Or reduce
resolution. So that's out, but out of curiousity, how does the program
FORCE you to use one monitor? How does it even know what monitor
configuration you have? I guess, since I use the 2320 and my NEC is
attached to THAT, that I could put the cable from the FC24 to the 23-pin
adapter back on, but it seems silly.
As far as the 1200 vs the FC24, you are probably right. I committed to
the FC24 before I knew I would get a 1200. Right now the 1200 is ungodly
slow (it's a base configuration), but it occurs to me that after I save my
money up and put a Viper1230 (or whatever) and a hard drive in it, that it
might end up being used a lot more than it is now (if only the screen
display wasn't so much smaller than I get out of the A2320). With the 1200
having just the 14Mhz '020 and no fast ram, sitting next to the 2000 with
a 28Mhz '040 and 16MB of 32bit fast ram, it's hard to get excited doing
anything on the little guy. Denny's JPEG of Carmen Rizzolo's Enterprise
takes about 15 minutes to display on the 1200, and a few seconds on the
FC24. If I get the 1200 up to speed (say with a 50Mhz '030), I wouldn't be
surprised to find that at some point I might not want to use the 2000
much, depending on how much AGA support we actually get.
It's simple – there are myriad tools to display animations, and the ones
we make are compatible with those tools. We think of our software as
editing software; not presentation software – that's where the difference
comes in.
Imagemaster will display, temporarily and at your request, any image
loaded into an image buffer on the FC. Imagemaster F/c displays the image
on the FC24 the whole time it's running; edits the images there; etc.
It "forces" you indirectly, because when you attempt to select an area,
Amiga graphics are used to show you the area's you select; if you don't
use the "one-monitor" setup, then the area selection isn't shown over the
image and things get pretty weird. It will *work*, but I'd have to say
it's only about 1% as useful for most applications.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Thanks for the clarification. Imagemaster then works similarly to AdPro
(which I've used) in regards to the FC24. You do all the Image
manipulation on the Amiga screen, and the result is displayed on the FC.
Correct? Does it stay there while you are pressing other buttons (ie, I
load an image and display it. I decide I want to manipulate it somehow,
say resave it as a 16-color GIF. I do that on the Amiga screen, does the
FC get blanked, or does the image remain, as it does with AdPro)?
What tools are available that allow running of animations on the
FireCracker (are there any)? Forgive my ignorance, I'm really new at this
aspect of computing.
Imagemaster does not leave the FC image on screen when you have work to
do; it's only there when you want to look at the image in 24-bits.
I have NO idea what tools are available for use with the FC24. We don't
"use" the FC24, we just support it with Imagemaster… perhaps someone
else can fill you in on this.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben answered one of your questions. I'll answer the other. I don't know of
any real-time animations tools for the FC24. It don't think it is possible
to write to it fast enough to do animation. I DOES make a very pretty
picture and is supported by a number of fine programs. I have
ImagemasterFC, VistaPro 3, Light24 and AdPro which all support the FC24.
Imagine also supports it directly although I don't have that version.
I'm not sorry I bought one although I might not pay full price for a new
one at this point.
Goin' AP
…..Mark Sterling
Mark,
Thanks for the response.
No animations? It's not possible to take Carmen Rizzolo's Enterprise
model and a week and a half and make a really nice fly-by without going to
video tape (and single-frame controllers, etc)?
Ok, that brings up the NEXT question, I guess. I assume such tools ARE
(or will be) available for AGA? Could you take Carmen's wonderful
Enterprise and 2 weeks and make a HAM8 animation or a 256-color animation
that could be run from Workbench and viewed at full speed?
Not that I'm likely to do either, mind you, I'm just curious about
capabilities. Pipe dreams. Would I REALLY be better off selling the FC24
and putting the money towards a Viper1230 (or whatever) with fast ram and
a fast '030 so the 1200 becomes more usable?
What about "slide shows"? Simply displaying a series of images on the FC,
semi-automatically? Is that possible?
Pat,
>Could you take Carmen's wonderful Enterprise and 2 weeks and make a HAM8
animation or a 256-color animation
On my 4000 a 200 frame Enterprise anim (in scan line mode) takes about
24hours to render. Just though you'd like to know ;).
I've done this real cool effect with that model. I took a pic (Xapshot)
of two of my students standing on the landing of the stairs in our school.
In DCTV paint I altered the pic to look like they were looking out a
window of the Enterprise. I then mapped this 24bit pic to one of the
Enterprise windows (they are a separate object). I then rendered a slow
zoom all the way out from a closeup of the students looking out the
window, to a shot of the Enterprise moving off. It came out great. Next I
want to digitize a few seconds of video of my students, and map the
animation to the window. Then they would be moving as I zoomed out! Ron
and B5 have nothing on me ;).
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
Paul,
That sounds really great. Is that a 256-color animation using AGA modes?
How much memory does it take to a) store and b) watch this animation?
Glad to hear my 2 week estimate is too long for you. My '040 should be
closer to your time, too, I would imagine, though I don't have AGA
bandwidth.
I'm going to learn about this stuff, yet! 🙂
Congrats on the "zoom-out", but I bet your stars suck as much as mine when
using DCTV. *8)
After much deliberation, I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth
the extra effort to strike a balance in getting decent stars using DCTV,
and have decided to just filter the stupid things.
It may mean more squinting to see the stars, but they look better that way
than as Xmas tree lights.
Vance
Sounds like time to Trade tapes Again. That Mapping Studnts to Enterprise
Windows sounds Cool. I'll have to start some new Projects to keep up with
ya dude. BTW have you had a chance to Upload your Klingon Students yet?
Pat, I've done a few Anims with Carmen Rizzolo's NCC1701D, Average
Rendering Time for 736*482 24 bit image in Scanline mode with 2% star
setting in Imagine took about 10-12 minutes per frame on my Stock A3000.
So a 1 minute long Animation(1800 Frames) should take approx 300 Hours
NOT Taking into account writing to disk etc. 300 Hours is a bit under 13
days. But then again I have to say most of my anims are 150-900 Frames,
since anymore than that and my 14 meg machine runs out of RAM.
The only Anim I have that was 900 Frames was a Animated Logo of my
bddies company name on a Black Background. Tho I do have a SERIES of Anims
that lock together to form 1 LARGE anim of approx 3100 Frames.
Peter,
So my 2 weeks wasn't too far off, for you, eh? 🙂
So how do you display these animations? Since you have a 3000 I know
you are not displaying them in HAM8. What do you use to watch a 24-bit
animation?
AGA should capable if displaying Ham8 animations at high speed. The new
Anim7 format could probably do what you ask. Anim7 players are just in
their infancy and certainly will get faster. Adding a fast 030 or even an
040 will make this easier to accomplish.
The FC24 can display slide shows with no problem.
Goin' AP
…..Mark Sterling
Ben,
I use ImagemasterFC and I use two monitors. Who sez it requires using
"the _same_ monitor"? You must mean that either you must use one monitor
or use the overlay cable for the second monitor. IMCF seems to use the
Amiga display overlaid on the FC24 display for all controls and bounding
boxes. The FC24 has the capability of doing an overlay itself but your
software does not use it; no doubt with good reason eh? Phew, bad
sentence. Anyway, IMFC works beautifully on my A3000 with deinterlaced
video on the main screen and FC24 with overlay on the second monitor.
Goin' AP
…..Mark Sterling
Yah, that will work, but it's far from optimum.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot