#Is Collecting Proper
15 messages in this thread
Dear Lanny, I think the reality of what is happening here is a few assholes are
ruining it for everyone else. I wish it wasn't so but that is the pattern. A
few abusive people make rules and regs necessary.
Hi, Todd–
Those jerks may be a problem, but it does not follow that rules and regs are
the answer. There may be no answer that does not cost more than the jerks do
(I use "cost" in a broad sense, including destruction of the lands and loss of
scientific information as "costs"). The answer might be organizing a boycott
against the more offensive dealers, or something I have not thought of. Laws
have a horrible habit of backfiring against their purpose or clobbering
innocent bystanders, and the laws currently proposed to deal with these jerks
have such possibilities firmly embedded within them. Endlessly complicated laws
with unpredictable enforcement bring ever closer the days when no law may be
respected at all; what will protect the lands then?
–Doug
Doug — nicely stated.
Lanny
Todd
Yes and the rule are already there. The commercial removal of minerals requires
certain actions under the mining laws. These should be enforced, not
over-reacted too and all of us kicked off the land. With minerals it typically
comes to this when there is a problem–just close it and "solve" the problem.
Which usually means those who obey the laws are locked out, and those who don't
and were the problem to begin with keep right on breaking the law.
This method of "solving" the problems isn't applied equally: there is poaching
of game but the FS and BLM is not trying to stop hunting, there is poaching of
fish but they aren't trying to stop fishing, vandals destroy outhouses and
picnic tables, but the campgrounds aren't being closed, etc.
So why do they keep pickin gon us?
Lany
There has to be a law there in the first place to break. Of coarse simply
making a law will not stop anyone. If nobody ever did anything that was in any
way wrong we would not need them at all. The purpose of a law, among many, is
to state, this is wrong this is why, and this is what is going to happen to you
if you break the law and are caught. Yes some people will do whatever they
want regardless of any law or what anybody else thinks. Laws rarely solve
problems, just simply say what should be done when a problem occurs.
Laws rarely say "this is wrong, this is why." They just say, if you do this,
you'll be punished with that. Depending on their motivations, you'll find many
people willing to risk the punishment. Why, I've even heard that people will
risk their life in a job like deep-sea welding or oil rig roughnecking, in
exchange for cash.
True but they are rarely arrested for it. (Roughnecks) No law will stop
everone. There will always be murders, thiefs ETC. Here in CA there was an
article about I belive is name is Bobbit who visited Yosemite a few days ago.
The park is now allmost at the point were you must have a reservation to get in
any day of the year. So many people want to go and enjoy the park, there just
isn't enough room and to many people at one time are just too much for rangers
to manage.
I don't believe they are trying to stop you all together. What exactly are you
after, and why can't you find it someplace else? There are vast open areas in
the country. I suspect that certain areas of rare specimens are being closed
because a misuse by others. You get a hunting license to control the amount of
game killed. If you know anyone who has gotten caught without one and paid the
penalty it is effective in stopping poachers, nothing is 100%.
In your last message you referenced New Mexico. I went to college in
New Mexico, I had some friends who went fishing at Elephant Butte without a
permit, got caught and paid a fine of several hundred dollars. Word spread
pretty quick around the campus. Nobody there fished without one for some time.
I'm a poor student wasn't a good excuse as far as the judge was concerned.
Todd
Yes, there are vast open areas in this country. Unfortunately, they are mostly
of only two types: public land managed by the Forest Service and public land
managed by the Bureau of Land Management. In some Western states BLM land is
dominant, in others it is FS land. In the Northwest States (I live in Idaho)
the public land is mostly Forest Service (E. Mont. is mostly BLM), if these
regs go into effect there will be no collecting allowed on the FS managed
lands. The state of Idaho is mostly FS managed lands. These regs mean I will no
longer be able to enjoy the hobby/scientific study activity that I enjoy most
in life. Believe me, it is in the blood, it is not just a hobby I kind of like
to do for the fun of it. The only other thing more important to me, is my
family. I don't want to switch to stamp collecting, collecting bottle caps, or
make fishing my dominant fun thing. Mineral collecting and studying the
geology/mineralogy of mineral occurreces is IT!
The regs as proposed state that mineral, fossil, gem, etc collecting is
prohibited except as permitted. There is no permit system for amateur, hobby,
family rockhounding and related type collecting. These regs don't propose a
permit/license system, all these regs do is stop collecting by all but those
few museum and university personnel who can get a permit.
No one in anything I have read in any magazine, newspaper, online, or elsewhere
has given any reason for stopping the public from collecting these materials for
fun, hobby use, amateur based scientific studies etc. There are some abuses,
but most of these are already covered by other laws and should be
regulated/enforced under them. The majority law abiding public should not be
stopped from enjoying a hobby/recreation activity they have been enjoying since
we landed on this continent (and are still enjoying in European and African
countries that have been occuppied by humans for a few thousand years longer
than the US has).
So I ask, why not address the problems and not make a wholesale "thous shalt
not"? All these rockhounding activities are enjoyed by tens of thousands (or
hundreds of thousands–no one has counted them) of individuals and families all
over the US. If you don't believe this then just check out how many rock and
gem shows there are in the US each weekend. This hobby involves a lot of people
who like to go out on FS managed lands and collect various gems, minerals,
common fossils, etc. And if this government sees some reason to stop collecting
on FS lands then they probably will next stop it on BLM lands (there is no
reason for them not to be consistent), which means this hobby is gone. All that
is left are the few (and in the NW it is a meager few) private quarries and
accessible private mines.
It means the end of thousands of mineral related specimens collected by us
amateurs and donated to schools and universities each year. So where are these
under funded schools going to get their specimens? Who is going to help these
students in their education and provide that extra spark that "hands on"
studies provide? It also means the next geology class in any university that
makes a geology field trip to public lands can stand back and stare at an
outcrop, there can be no specimens taken back to the lab for study, unless the
professor has gone through the permitting process long before the field trip
(and what professor will be thrilled about this).
Why not address mineral-related problems the same as other disciplines on publi
lands? If there is a problem with hunting (to few animals they restrict hunting
in that area until the animals recover, if to many they open the hunt up to
either sex to diminish the heard, etc), if lands are overgrazed they reduce the
number of livestock on the lands or change the rotation, etc. They don't
wholesale stop the activities. So, until someone offers a real reason as to why
it should suddenly be stopped, then why is it being stopped instead of
addressing the problem areas?
Lanny
I never said you should stop, i do believe that you and others should obtain
permits similiar to hunting permits, that they should not be hard to get
assuming you can prove a minimum amount of skill and respect for the land.
Lanny i have spent a great deal of time in various wilderness areas and
the only time I have ever seen a ranger or a BLM type person was at a park gate
collecting a fee to get in.
Todd
I can't say I would suddenly like to start paying for a license, but it would
be hard to argue against it with any good reason for doing so. But, it would be
nice if the money for the license went to something related to rockhounding and
not just sucked up into the vast nothingness of government.
I guess you are lucky. I haven't personally run into very many FS rangers,
Wilderness Rangers, etc. but know several people who have and have been hassled
by them when they weren't doing much. One Wilderness Ranger in the Sawtooth
Mountains ran into a couple of us on the trail one time and acted like she was
the Gestapo and we were practically trespassers for standing there. Generally
this has not been a problem for me. Curiously, the few times I have been
hassled by some FS ranger or other personnel has been when I was just there,
not doing anything but hiking. I personally have not been hassled by FS or BLM
personnel for collecting, but I do have a nice collection of stories from those
who have.
Lanny
Lanny, what do you mean by hassled? A citation? Were they rude or abusive. The
only people who ever gave me a hard time were some gold miners who think
everyone is out to jump their claim. I guess I have spent allot of time in
desert regions, it is very hard to sneek up on someone, you can see for miles,
and generally I always went during the hotest time of the year. I been thru
Idaho by motorcycle, beautiful State!
Todd
By hassled I mean treated as if you were doing something wrong, as in the
ranger was not friendly and started laying down the rules and regulations with
that tone of voice of "I can't see what it is, but you are obviously doing
something wrong", or asking questions in a prying manner when they really
weren't relevant to the situation while acting like the questions have to be
answered, or starting to tell the hapless victim what he can and can't do with
that same unfriendly tone in the voice when there is no reason for anything but
a friendly greeting and perhaps an inquiry as to is everything alright and is
there anything the ranger can help with. Or in the worse case being on an
outcrop breaking a little rock and being told you can't touch anything, etc.
when in fact it is perfectly legal, and acceptable by the Forest Service. That
kind of hassled.
Fortunately for my, I have only had the gestapo type questioning while standing
on a trail loaded down with a backpack.
In fact, while collecting, most of my contacts with anyone who may be in charge
of the land have been of the curiousity type questioning, and that includes FS
personnel, BLM personnel, claim owners, Highway Patrolmen, and Highway Dept.
crews.
Lanny
There is an attorney here at this forum. I don't believe they have right to
detain you. You could just walk away. If they hold you without cause, file a
complaint. Perhaps rangers have the authority to search backpacks, I don't
know. If you are not armed and therefor not a poacher and you are not violating
fire regs and are hassled, get a badge number and file a complaint.
I suspect the people you have had problems with are frustrated that
they can't catch destructive people in the act so hassle anyone who gets in
there way. I know a guy who was out in the back country of New Mexico was
approached by a female ranger and wound up with a dinner date.
The extent that it has happened to me hasn't been worth the trouble of
continuing with the matter, but others have told me some rather disturbing
prblems. Some have gone to the appropriate manager. I doubt that the FS or
other rangers have the authority to search backpacks considering the fact that
a County Sheriff can't without probable cause.
Anyway the point was that the rangers of various types are out there and
rockhound people do run into them on occasion, and are hassled by them.