#Forensic People
14 messages in this thread
Sunday, April 2, '95
We do Forensic animation(mainly auto and construction accidents) for courtroom
presentation(demonstrative evidence). In the cases where a human figure is
required we typically use a simple mannequin or crash dummy model for several
reasons:
…..Too much detail, facial detail in particular can be objected to in
court…
…The human eye is very sensitive to recognizing "imperfections" in the human
form and face……Clothing problems – finding the right outfit for a model in
time for the case…how the cloths behave when the model moves…the mapped on
cloths look..
The mannequin model has got us around most of the latter problems in the sense
that it portrays what it is very well, that it it doesn't "pretend" to be more.
However, we anticipate the situation arising were the old mannequin just won't
be adequate, such as in a case where more anatomical detail and precise
dimentions may be required.
With this in mind, we would appreciate hearing any ones thoughts and/or
experiences out there, on the subject of human models….your particular
favorites(vendors, models, tricks & methods)…for Non-Forensic or Forensic
applications…
Good advise is always welcome.
TIA . . . . . Doug – JGI
Doug:
>> we would appreciate hearing any ones thoughts and/or experiences out
>> there, on the subject of human models….your particular favorites…
We use Humanoid for most of our forensic work. No clothes, but excellent
detail.
Greg Pyros
Greg:
What color or texture do you assign to your Humanoids typicaly for forensic
work ?
Do you ever even map on clothes ?
Hmmmm….>>…No clothes, but excellent detail…..Sounds like California
forensic animation for sure. Who ever said that forensic work was dull ?
Doug Bover
Doug,
There is detailed info and sample images of Humanoid in the ANVENA –
New Anim. Vendor library. Just search with the keyword CRESTLINE, and all the
relevant files will come up. After you've looked at them, if you have any
questions please let me know, and I'll be happy to answer them.
– Tim Wilson, Crestline Software
Have you looked at the male and female models on the Acuris CD. (The
same models appear severl places). Examples are on the world
creating tool kit.
Cal,
Thanks for the reminder on Acuris….I've been so busy that my CD
collection has fallen behind.
Hi Doug – just caught your previous message. I too am having the same
experience with forensic modeling, however we are just getting off the
ground. We are trying to migrate to Pentiums or high end 486's,
having been used to SGI stuff that is too expensive for us to
handle in our new venture.
Do you feel 3DS is adequate for forensic modeling? What else would
you recommend we look at in setting up shop. A grooup of us are
experienced lab and PI people and have had much animation history,
but moving into business on our own means watching the capital.
You hit the nail right on the head, we have had a few cases where too
realistic a figure may have been thereason the judge did not allow
the animated version to come into evidence. We have exclusively moved
to the crash dummy mode as well. I do see however, (ala the OJ
animation) where more horsepower and more creative but neutral
effects (as to evidence) will add to the end product without tainting
it. Of course, not all of us have six figure customers to fund an SGI
and CRAY lab!!
I would enjoy our comments on 3DS and other tools we should be looking at
adding to our tool kits. Thanks and Good luck!
Gene
Gene –
A question from a bystander <G>. Why don't forensic animations take
all of the "race" or "sex" out of the animation by giving a neutral
light green or blue to the figures – in a crash dummy configuration.
I did happen to catch the OJ animation on Hard Copy and was quite
suprised both at how graphic it was and at the black/white coloration
of the models. Are there any standards for figure modeling in
forensic animations yet?
I don't know if you noticed but they gave an explanation as to why the
figur doing the killing was black and it is obvious the two victims were white.
Rick –
I did notice the reference to hair traces in the cap for the reason the alleged
perpetrator was black. I am NOT an OJ trial junky. But I do find the entire
forensic process fascinating.
Back in a former life (my youth?) I attended Medical College of Virginia for a
while in Physical Therapy training. Found I did not have the patience to be
truly effective so wandered on into property management <G> However I did spend
many hours studying human anatomy and all of the evidence it contains of how a
body spent it's life = and met it's death. If I had it all to do over again I
would have become a forensic pathologist, a geologist or a member of the VICAP
team. Maybe next time.
Anne
I don't have anyone yet that can come up with standards for
forensic animations, if I did, then our job would be a lot easier! In
most states, the judge has the final say as to what is admissable as
evidence. Forensic animations, or accident reconstructions have to
pass all the same tests as any other piece of evidence. In our case,
if the animator gets too smooth and too creative, then the judge will
through it out as unssupported by other testimony, or statements.
As for the coloring of the crash dummy – I agree and have for
quite some time used neutral shades, staying away from clothes,
facial features, or skin colors. Most judges will usually be very
hard on this – jurors believe animations and the techno's (us) that
describe how they were made. The OJ tape was made for one purpose
only – for show. It would never be used in court – the assumptions
on race, facial expressions, etc, are totally out of line. The judge
and the defense would have a fit. Not much of it is supported (so
far) with testimony or evidence.
Thanks…..gene
We regularly watch "Next Step" on the Discovery channel and from time
to time they will have segments on 3D use in many applications. A
while back they had a segment on a forensic animation that won a
court case for a lawyer – showing the exact steps by which a man was
shot. All the figures were very neutral but realistic. I did see what
the criteria was for the sex/color of the animation figures in the OJ
clip – hair samples, etc. Glad to know that clip should never make it
into the courtroom. Just seemed to prejudicial.
The other Next Step segment I keep remembering is the convicted
murderer who gave his body to be frozen, sliced micron thin and used
as the material for a whole body encyclopedia. Think that was the
first time I realized the power of animation. Doctors could "give"
this man a disease and see it's effects on his body through computer
animation.
Gene,
In answer to your first question as to whether I feel that 3DS is adequate for
forensic modeling:
We have found 3DS more than adequate for all the cases we have done to
date.
If you are concerned about 3DS being only "single precision", there is
a
lengthy note on double vs single precision in a library somewhere( I
can't recall which library) on this forum that should make you feel better.
So far we have been using mostly Viewpoint models for our auto and
construction case work.
In terms of forensic tools….I would reccomend "TEMPO"(IPAS Disk #7, Yost
Group Inc.) and "Civil Detailer", IPAS (Schreiber Instruments) for starters.
Doug – JGI
Thanks Doug – I'll check them out. You are the first to tell me that 3DS can be
used with some other S/W that can enhance it. That's more like reality to me!