#DIG
27 messages in this thread
Ben,
I suspect that CBM will release an "A3000" as a workstation, with a
matching pricetag. It will probably have a new 32bit bus structure, as well as
a few A2000 compatable slots. The pricing structure would easily be wide enough
to place the "A3000" as a high priced machine, while allowing the A2000 to be
reduced in price to make it more competitive with midrange PC's.
I think that CBM will continue to produce the A500/A2000 even when the
"A3000" come's out. Doing this will allow them to trickle the users up to the
bigger machines, after enticing them in with the lower priced models.
-Dean
DISCLAIMER: This is pure speculation. I have no information from within or
without of CBM to support these statements. This is my own personal opinion!
I think CBM wouldn;t know a workstation if it came up and made cad soup for
them.
My personal speculation is that CBM will continue to completely fail to market
the machine, that sales of games will continue unabated, that the machine will
make a significant penetration into the HAM radio market (I'm gonna MAKE that
happen!) and it will lose the video share (trivial though it currently is)
because the current "standards", ie NTSC, are going to be stomped by HDTV
standards which will make the Amiga's video old tech.
Likewise, my opinion only.
–Ben–
Dean,
Let me add a little SPECULATION (NOT FACT!!!) <for those just getting
in on this>…
The A3000 will come with both UNIX and AmigaOS as standard. It will
come in the near $10,000 price range, will have dual slots that will accept
current Amiga A2000 cards but will also accept 32 bit boards (similar to the 16
bit slots on an AT…that'll accept both 8 and 16 bit boards).
Don
Near $10000? Somehow, I don't see C= selling $10K systems. Actually, I see them
sell them, I just don't see anybody buying them (given the current system
software which is not powerful enough).
Martin,
From history, CBM had – Oh, 4 or 5 years ago, long before the Amiga line, a
computer called the C900.
It was a multi-user "UNIX" system running COHERENT. It had 1024 x 800
monochrome graphics, and was based on the Z8000 CPU.
It was a great machine, looked like the A2000, and was well within the price of
a system of that capability.
Commodore ended up dropping the idea of selling this system because there were
no dealers that could handle the installation of a system like that because all
their dealers were C64 and VIC-20 dealers at the time.
Now that there are REAL dealers who are capable of selling the 2500 systems,
there might be a chance for a machine of the A3000's nature, providing there
are some dealers that they "trust" to do a good follow-up job after the sales,
and most importantly, that CBM does not let every A500 dealer stock the
high-end machines, cheapening the image, and EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, Commodore
must provide training to the dealers!!!!!!!! and support!!!!!!!
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
I'll beleive it whn I see it. As I sid, I don't think the system software is
currently adequate to support a workstation-level at workstation prices.
Consider the lack of easy network support, the lack of a standard userinterface
(Intuition is nowhere near Open Look or NextStep for example), lack of
virtual/protected memory. So unless C= spends A LOT on development, such a
workstation machine would not work. And I know for a fact that C= is NOT
spendin the bucks on R&D that it should to even sustain the Amiga line. I guess
we'll find out some stuff at DevCon…
Martin,
Don't forget…this is not the current A2500 we're talking about, but
rather guesses at what the A3000 (or whatever) 32 bit machine will be. I can
almost guarantee that this machine will come with an MMU. That'll take care of
the virtual/protected memory problem…and UNIX will take care of the rest
(networking, etc.).
Don
The A2500 has an MMU and it doesn't solve anything. Current AmigaDOS software
cannot take advanatge of an MMU and unless major patches are performed, I doubt
that an MMU-based Amiga will be of much use as an Amiga. Now as a UNIX
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AmigaDOS 1.4 (from what I hear) will support an MMU.
I'd be very surprised. It will certainly not be capable of protecting
applications the way it's meant to. Consider that Amiga tasks are constantly
sharing bit of memory (Intuition gadgets, IO blocks, packets, semapores,
messages, shared variables, etc…).
Hrumph. The main reason I'd use an MMU would be to implement virtual memory,
which is far more important than "protecting" applications, IMHO.
–>Steve Bennett
AH! But it can! The Vax does it, RSX does it, UNIX does it, etc, etc. And they
have much less capable MMUs than the Motorola one. Why do you think AmigaDOS
has memory allocation routines which have flags such as "MEMF_PUBLIC", etc.?
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Don, is UNIX always a virtual memory system? If so, will the 2500UX in
its five meg of ram be able to run a multiuser environment?
— Ethan
Ethan,
One would presume CBM has a reason for comming out with a multi-serial
port card. 5 meg is plenty to run a multi-user system. Some of our small UNIX
boxes at work have only 4 Meg of RAM and are rated at 20 users, although in
reality…for the work we're doing…8 maxes out the machine.
No, UNIX is not a VM machine by definition…you can't ask for more
memory than is available…but you can use more memory than is available on a
total machine basis. That is, 10 users could ask for 1 Meg memory each and get
it on a 4 Meg machine…but one user couldn't ask for 10 Meg of memory.
Don
That's what I don't understand, if the implementation of UNIX doesn't use
virtual memory, then how can 10 users each use 1 meg of RAM on a 4 meg system?
— Ethan
Ethan,
It depends on how you define "virtual memory". Some folks define it as
the ability for a single user to grab more memory space than there is physical
memory. The "missing RAM" ends up on a disk…so is obviously slow.
The other definition is that the sum total of all the system's tasks
memory usage is large than the physical amount of memory…again, the "missing
RAM" goes onto a disk.
Under UNIX, tasks, and their resources get swapped from real memory
onto a disk during task switches. This is done in pages (small segments of
memory) under current versions of UNIX (vs the whole shooting match getting
swapped as was done in early versions of UNIX).
That's where an MMU comes in…when a page gets re-loaded, it may or
may not end up in the same place it was when it got swapped out…so the MMU
has to re-map it so it appears to be in the same physical space it used to be
in.
BTW, 10 users asking for 1 meg of memory each in a 4 meg machine will
run VERY slowly due to the large amount of swapping that needs to be done.
This also presumes that there's a large enough swap partition on the drive to
move all the users onto swap as needed.
Don
Don,
I don't know about the implementation on the machines you use, but a single
user can most assuredly ask for mor memory than there is in the machine, and
can get it, on other Unix boxes. The OS doesn't care who is asking It's all VM.
It really depends on the amount of sap space available.
-larry
Martin,
You may be right when you say that AmigaDOS may not be adequate for a
workstation, but if you're running a 68030 and UNIX, you have something similar
to the new Sun 3/80 which IS a workstation.
AmigaDOS can be used as a workstation (I use it as such at the office). The
performance doesn't match a 68020 system (I'm using an A1000 at the office, a
2000 here at home). If you have a 2000, you can add Ameristar's Ethernet board
and TCP/IP software and you're online with the big boys.
'Nuff said.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Much of what you described sounds like obvious additions to a potential
A3000. protected memory will probably be implemented in an eventual op system
with a 68030 with an mmu or a 68040 (which comes with one).
— Ethan
Ethan,
The 68030 also comes with the MMU built in.
Don
I remember the only Ami dealer in my home town – as far as I could tell when
home visiting last spring, no one there even knew how to boot the bridge card
in it. Now you're hoping that dealers can handle unix?
Ron
I hope that they set up "SYSTEMS" dealers to handle the WorkStations and let
the others sell the standard systems.
There has to be some way of CBM to "test" or have dealers qualify to be systems
dealers to keep the "riff-raff" out of it.
Sincerely, Brian R. Niessen DesignTech Business Systems Inc.
Their current standard appears to be – do they have salesmen? Have they ever
sold a computer? Will they not bother tech support with silly questions like
how to boot an Amiga (because they don't plan to do demos)? Do they have a
reasonable chance of paying their bills?
Ron
Martin:
Believe it or not, right now they sell systems in the $5,000 to $6,000 range
(or rather, their dealers do, with third party add ons, and I'm not talking
about 24 bit color digitzers, or SMPTE timers, either).
In fact, I heard a commercial Amiga specialist here in New York just completely
Amigatized a small magazine publisher for $60,000.
?|^] Ray Lewis
What magazine publisher?
— Ethan
Not to mention it is likely we will see $3000 dollar unix systems from sun in
the next year or two…
sdb
Martin,
That's why I suspect it will come standard with UNIX on-board, the
AmigaDOS software will end up being secondary. A machine in that category
would more than likely be used as a UNIX workstation.
Again…this is all conjecture on my part, not based on anything but my
own guesses.
Don