#500 OR 2000 ?
28 messages in this thread
I need an Amiga. The question is, do I need a 500 or a 2000? How do I justify
the large price difference? I know upgrading the 2000 will be cheaper because
it has slots, but will it offset the large initial price difference in the
longrun. Is there ANYTHING you can do on an 2000 that absolutely cannot be
done on a 500? I'm puzzled. Do I get a 500 next week or a 2000 in a couple of
months? Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Mat*Rat
The main question is what hardware do you intend to add in the future. If
you want graphics boards, the Amiga 2000 is a must. If you want more than a
less powerful 7.14MHz 68020 (w/math coprocessor) the Amiga 2000 is a must. If
you want a hard drive, you will spend about $250 more on a 500, and the
difference in clumsiness in the setup may inspire you to go to a 2000. But if
all you intend is memory and an extra diskdrive, the 500 will do. By the way, I
have a harddrive in my Amiga 500. Its usable, but somewhat messy.
— Ethan
Mat (Is this Matt Rakoski (sp??))
If you can at all, get the A2000. The separate keyboard/CPU is a major
plus (in my book)…and if you're the Matt I think you are, it should be in
your book also.
I suppose if you wanted to really hack into an A500, you could do
almost (if not all) everything you can do on an A2000. But among other things
just about everything you do will require an external device, not an internal
device. Take adding a video add-on if you so desired. ON the A2000, it goes
inside. On the A500, you'd not only have to hack the machine up to get to the
signals, but the add-on would have to be external.
Adding more memory? You'd have to both upgrade the power supply (or
get an externaly powered box) but you'd have to hang a box on the expansion
port…directly on the port, not cabled to it (in most cases…there are
exceptions) so move the keyboard, the box comes loose! Add a hard drive, same
thing, how about a BridgeBoard…you'd definately need a box hanging on the
side. More than one add-on, it's chancy at best. The side expansion port is
designed to accept only ONE add-on. That add-on can be a box (which can hold
boards)…or it can be a board.
All in all, the A2000 is a far superior machine for anything except
basic (not BASIC) computing.
Don
One minute reviso: yes the A500 can only take one add-on, but as a result most
add-ons designed for the A500 have a bus pass-through, as well as independent
power supply to deal with the low-power problem. Still, that box on the side
would make *me* claustrophobic! sw
Steve,
It's the bus pass-thru that's the problem…while that allows you to
add more than one device…the A500's bus isn't designed to accept more than
one device, so that 2nd unit may or may not work. Admittedly, in most
cases…it does work with 2 devices, but I've heard of only a very few folks
who have gotten either the A1000 or the A500 to work with 3 devices.
Don
It also depends on whether the addon devices are buffered. And the power
supply. Granted three is pushing it, but if the devices are made well there
shouldn't be a problem. But, the subsystem 500 and the toolbox are nothing but
simple extenders. To believe they came with a pass-through…
— Ethan
Ethan,
A device can be a "board" or a "box". A box can hold multiple boards.
Thus either the SubSystem or the ToolBox are only counted as a single
device…presuming they followed the CBM specs for boxes.
Don
So once a box is hooked up, the device-max count is down from three to two
(best-case scenario)? sw
Steve,
yes…but don't forget what I said in the message I left to you just
prior to this…a box can hold multiple boards.
Don
I think I'm beginning to get the picture… let me ask a specific question:
could I configure an A500 with Expansion Technologies' expansion box, the
Bridgeboard (not using the 5.25" drive) and, say, a hard-disk w/built-in SCSI
controller etc. and use the Amiga's drive DF0: and external Amiga drive DF1: to
read MSDOS 3.5" floppies when using the Bridgeboard? At least to get PC
software onto the hard drive? Will the Bridgeboard utilize the available 3.5"
floppy drives in the Amiga for PC work when it's selected or whatever?
Thanks for a continuing tutorial on some basics,
steve
It is possible to hook up the cards you just described (the bridgeboard
without the 5.25" drive, of course), but about using the internal/external
3.5"ers, that depends on the BB. I'm not familiar enough with it to know, but
if it works on the 2000, it will work on a 500 similarly equipped. By the way,
A500s are only supposed to take one expansion device on the side, although most
take two. Its all luck, you may only be able to use one, but then again, some
will take three!
— Ethan
Supposedly the 2286 board can share the existing Amiga drives, that's what I've
read at least. I imagine one could put a hard card and 2286 in a box for the
A500 without too much trouble. sw
Steve,
No, the BridgeBoard can not use drives attached to the Amiga side of
things. The drives must be directly connected to the BridgeBoard. However the
BridgeBoard comes with software that allows you to read Amiga files (or write
them) so you can move information from one side to the other.
I'm not familiar with the Expansion Tech. expansion box. IF it is
designed properly, yes, you could put multiple boards into it. I don't know
about the BridgeBoard though, since it not only plugs into an Amiga slot, but
also plugs into the A2000's PC compatible slots. I don't know what the effect
would be of leaving the PC slot stuff unconnected.
Don
Both the SubSystem and the ToolBox claim to be able to use a BB, even
though they don't have PC slots. By the way, I thought the the 8088 BB didn't
have a PC card?
— Ethan
The problem is that both the SubSystem and the ToolBox break commodore's
rules regarding expansion boxes. They are both non-buffered, as I have heard (I
can't define the term myself). The buses are described as being extremely
noisy. Most people I have heard of here can't even use the second slot of the
expansion (that is WITH the extra power supply).
— Ethan
Ethan,
That wouldn't surprise me…most add-ons for the A500 (but NOT all
add-ons for the A500) seem to be built with low cost in mind, not high quality
and it's accompanying higher costs.
If folks could spend the money for high cost add-on expansion boxes for
the A500, they probably could have bought the A2000 in the first place so
manufacturers tend to cut corners to lower costs.
Don
I think your analysis is right on target. People who buy the 500 don't
have the money for the 2000 and thus will not be able to spend the same kind of
money.
— Ethan
Yes, and thus we're not going to spend *anything* on add-on boxes that don't
really work! Will save up for a few years, should be able to get a 68030 Amiga
for the price of a current 2000 by the time I can afford an upgrade! ;-0 sw
"It also depends on whether the addon devices are buffered… if the devices
are made well there shouldn't be a problem."
Sorry, it's not that simple. If you hang multiple unbuffered devices on the
bus, you court failure because of 1) transmission line effects and distributed
capacitance from the longer unterminated bus lines, and 2) decreased noise
margins from increased loading. (The bus is for the most part hanging directly
off the CPU pins. Take a look at a 680×0 spec sheet sometime to see how little
capacitance and loading it can tolerate.)
If you hang multiple buffered devices on the bus, you court failure because of
increased propagation delays from one end of the chain to the other.
Theoretically it should be safe to hang a buffered device on the bus and then
hang an UNbuffered device or two on the other end. But then you're approaching
the card cage concept, which is one of the two approved methods for Amiga
expansion.
Buffered or unbuffered, well designed or not, the simple fact is that the bus
is only designed to handle ONE device, be it a SOTS box or a rack. If it's a
SOTS box, adding a second device may or may not work, and there are effectively
no guarantees. If it's a rack, designed to spec, then you should be able to
load up the rack with to-spec cards with no problems.
Just didn't want you to think that if you bought device A and device B, both
buffered, that you were automatically safe… it's still a gamble.
Rick
The ToolBox I have ain't all so stable. I've found that when it is cold
out (reasonably so), the box, made of metal, will logically also be cold. EVERY
SINGLE TIME ITS COLD I GET TWO GURUS! Always, my system will guru twice,
usually when updating the display. After that, apparently things have warmed up
enough to go. I feel the toolbox itself and there is an evident temperature
difference between when it works and when it doesn't.
— Ethan
I believe I specified that both the cage and the cards therein would have to be
properly designed and to spec. I don't know that this is NOT the case with the
ToolBox, but it certainly does sound like you have problems. Have you
contacted the manufacturer?
Rick
Mine works fine. I have one card in it, the GVP 40 meg hardcard, and it
works. I'm just saying that: it isn't designed according to commodore standards
and that I've heard horror stories about other people not getting both slots to
work. I haven't yet experimented to see if mine does.
— Ethan
Mine works fine. I have one card in it, the GVP 40 meg hardcard, and it
works. I'm just saying that: it isn't designed according to commodore standards
and that I've heard horror stories about other people not getting both slots to
work. I haven't yet experimented to see if mine does.
— Ethan
What about all those expansion boxes that provide a number of slots? I assume
the companies would be out of business for false advertising if they didn't
work(?).
Steve,
Because that a box. The side expansion can take one box or board.
Boxes can accept one or more boards.
In fact, that was the original intent of the side port, that the user
would put an expansion box on it. Your expansion devices would then go into
the box…not directly on the side port.
Don
Most expansion boxes are unreliable, especially on the 1000. Many
incompatibilities. Many people say that you can't use both slots, but that's
luck.
— Ethan
Arnie,
Right now, you cannot use the Flickerfixer on a 500 and you can on a 2000.
Perhaps not important, unless you want a higher-resolution monitor and have to
have that card in order to use it. It really makes a difference in the
display. Also, the boxes for slots that are currently available for the 500
are not very dependable about working with all the cards you might want. Most
of them work with some, not with others, and not always with the same ones –
just not dependable.
My opinion – yes, it matters. Your needs – maybe it doesn't.
Betty
Thanks for the input Betty.
Mat*Rat