#De-interlacer for $399
34 messages in this thread
Ok, gang, here we go. We're doing a bit of research here. How does a
"de-interlacer" for $399 sound? This is a beast which would support ALL current
Amiga screen modes, but remove the nasty interlace flicker. We know all about
FlickerFixer. We're thinking about this coming in at around $399 list price.
It'd go into the video slot.
This is VERY PRELIMINARY market research. We are interested in eliciting your
comments. I'll try to answer all responses we receive.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Sounds like your proposal is functionally equivalent to the flicker fixer. If
so, you are talking about a lower price point that would force Microway to
either match it or get out. In any case I suspect the market is too small to
support two vendors of such a product (especially with the ECS modes around the
corner).
How about a low budget PVA?
— Art
Art:
If you start thinking that ECS is a panacea for interlace flicker, you are
very wrong. ECS non-interlace in more than 1 bitplane (that's 2 colors) slows
down your machine PERCEPTIBLY. If you want a demonstration right now as to
what that's like, open a CLI in a 640 x 400 16-color screen, and do a few C
compiles.
Ariel
I just realized something, though. The new chip set's 640×400 with 4
colors non-interlaced will give us the current WB screen non-interlaced in
x400. And there I was thinking it was useless with only four colors!
— Ethan
Ethan:
Yes, it will do that. But, as Jim Mackraz has said many times, you
probably won't like it. In fact, if you're planning to use your Amiga with a
Multisync monitor and ECS, you might want to start making up single bitplane
icons right now. <grin>
Ariel
By no means do I think ECS is a "panacea" but I do think it has to affect the
thinking of anyone considering a flicker fixer type product. — Art
Art,
Well, not fully equiv. to the flicker fixer, but close. Lower price.
A PVA? Hmmm…now there's a thought….
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Rick, hmm… the real price in any de-interlacer is the cost of a multisync
monitor. (At the moment, anyway.) Now, this product you're talking about can
beat the flickerFixer by really working in ANY mode. (If it does PAL Overscan,
which FF doesn't, I'd buy it now.) It also should be able to de-interlace the
new video modes CBM are going to release with their new graphics chipset. I am
happy with the flickerFixer right now because it de-interlaces without using up
any precious DMA.
That's all I have to say right now. (grin)
Khalid.
As I understand it, Khalid, you'd plug your Amiga monitor into it. No multisync
needed. The engineers just said that it'd work in all Amiga modes. I'm not 100%
sure they thought of PAL, though. I'll talk to them about it.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Rick,
Could it turn its de-interlacing OFF when you wanted to use an external
genlock?
Lee
Lee,
To use an external genlock, you put it on the Amiga's normal video output, not
on the de-interlacer. The video coming from the Amiga's video connector is not
altered in any way, and I am sure what MicroBotics is thinking about would
leave the video output alone, too.
73, Kelly
Kelly,
But you'd need two monitors. Or an A/B switch that would get a lot of
switching. With a Mitsubishi multisync say, (which can handle composite
output), if there were a software switch to route interlaced video through the
de-interlacer untouched, you could get by nicely. Just stick the command to
leave the signal alone in the startup-sequence of your titler, or whatever.
Lee
Lee, yup. It'd go in the 2000 video slot.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Rick,
If it'll also support the comming v1.4 modes…yes, otherwise, no.
Don
Don, perhaps. I'll have to get more info on it.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
The only thing is to try to put in some slot other than the video slot.
There are so many boards contending for it, from what I understand, that it may
be better to put it elsewhere, if possible. Importantly, if was as good as the
FlickerFixer for $399, microway would be out of business RSN!
— Ethan
Ethan,
I understand that it would go in the video slot. We'll have to see what they
really meant.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Rick, Why? The flicker-fixer is only $100 more, and you would be basically
doing the same thing, so why re-invent the same thing?
Next thing you know, MicroBotics will be looking at making Genlocs and Midi
interfaces <GRIN>.
73, Kelly
Kelly, you say the flicker-fixer is only $100 more. That's not quite
right. The $399 price is a list price, but a $499 is DEFINITELY a discount
price. So there's a $200 list price difference. As to the difference when it
comes to discount prices, that depends on MicroBotics.
— Ethan
Ethan, $499 is the price I see the Flicker Fixer advertised for. So that is
what it costs! Microbotics thinks they can come out with a similiar device
with a price of $399. Since this board isn't available yet, then that is what
the price is, and the difference is $100.
How can you even think about guessing what the street price will be, and
compare it to the flicker fixer. That is absurd! If this feeling around is at
as early a stage in the products life I think it is, then they haven't even
built a prototype yet! If anything happens to the price, it will go up when
production starts! Then where will your price gap be?
Why don't you look at it from another perspective. You can buy the flicker
fixer NOW. Microbotics board would probably be 6 months to a year away.
73, Kelly
Kelly, I really don't know what you're talking about. You're comparing
apples and oranges. $499 is street price, $399 is list. If the list price would
have to go, MicroBotics would never make the product in the first place, as its
selling point will be its price. If the list price is $399, the street price
will HAVE to be less. I can't predict an exact price, but a $50 difference is
probable. All I'm saying is that you can't say that the difference in price
will be $100. It will probably be $150 – $200. When's the last time a company
advertisedd the street price of its product. I really don't understand what
your point is!
— Ethan
The point is, your trying to compare a non-existant product (not even up to the
rank of vapour-ware) to an existing product.
Rick says the list price will be $399. Haven't you ever seen the list price
change from the time something is announced to the time it is delivered? Just
look at the video toaster!!
Who is to say the list price of the Flicker Fixer will remain the same as it is
now when this fictional (can't think of any other name for something that
hasn't been built yet) board is released? I'll bet you the list price of
Flicker Fixer will come down about $100, since by that time, MicroWay will more
than have recovered all the startup costs involved with producing the board.
And even with the reduced list price (and also reduced dealer price), there
will still be room for the dealers to offer a reasonable street price, reducing
the street price margin between the two boards. I am also assuming the
Microbotics board will not have as much of a discount, compared to the Flicker
Fixer.
You are doing a price comparison of the list price of the two boards. Does
this mean you pay list price on everything you buy? I doubt it. To me this is
comparing apples to oranges. You have to compare street prices, and since
Microbotics board doesn't have one, then you can't.
With all that said, The flicker fixer exists. The microbotics board may never
see the light of day, and if it does, were probably looking at six months,
minimum.
73, Kelly
//// Jim Nangamo – whap just "got lost" again sending replies to CIS!!
Well, we knew that the 2090 was out, but we made HardFrame. We knew that the
2058 was coming out, yet we did TWO versions of 8-Up!
"It is the nature of man to build better mousetraps. It is nature's nature to
build better mice. It is MicroBotics' nature to build stuff for the Amiga
better and cheaper that the rest of 'em." – Rick Stevens
Rick Stevens, Resident Philosopher, MicroBotics, Inc.
(crooked grin!)
Rick, how about a de-interlacer for the A500? _That_ would be popular. 🙂
Khalid.
We'll look at it, Khalid.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
As a consumer, I'd love it. Competition in any area is always beneficial. I
vote Yea (pronounced "yay", not "yeah"). <grin>
Ariel
Ok, one vote in the plus column. Thanks, Ariel.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
I'm please with my 8-UP board. A solid product with a reasonible price.
(Although I am one of those people who had to wait a while when you got so many
orders so quickly.)
I'd like to be able to interlace, but I won't put up with the flicker, and
I won't pay the big money for Flicker-Fixer. It's not that I don't believe
that FF is not a good product, or a reasonible cost. It's just that the
cost-benefit ratio is not there for me. Now $399US would be a different
matter.
Another vote in the plus column. Thanks, Ernie.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Rick,
Let me chime in on two points:
1. FF "real" price = $500 + $450 (cheap multisynch) = $950. Add to this the
loss of monitor based sound (I'm not sure about all of them, but the
monitors I've looked at hav no speakers) and the loss of the video slot
for potential "Toaster" like boards/devices and the flicker fixer doesn't
look to good for many of us. Then there is what happens with the new
chip set and 1.4.
2. Your proposed board and no new monitor required (if I followed the
proposal correctly) looks real good except for the potential conflict
with boards/devices that need the 2000 video slot to get color video out.
Now, if you could pass that out as well as the standard Amiga displays,
it gets even better looking to me. Now, the clincher would be how it
will fit with the new chip set/display modes/monitors of the rumored
Ados 1.4 HW/SW update.
As you may be able to tell, I don't know that much about the Amiga vis-a-vis
video as yet. But I had fun playing with my 1000, a VHS deck and some
microphones. Admittedly the color was awful but it was there. Then I traded
up to the 2000 and lost the color video out. But I have been slowly gathering
info with the idea of getting more into the uses of the Amiga in video. So
anything going into the video slot that could preclude the use of that slot or
its output in video applications, gets scrubbed from my "buy list".
I know surveys want Yes/No answers but…..
wmc
Rick,
Can't see that $100 difference in price on the board will give you a
significant advantage over Microway, or do anything to expand the size of the
market. Total cost for a board and monitor will still be in the $1000 range.
And Microway probably has plenty of margin to give away if they wanted to match
your price.
Question on another subject: did you make any changes in the 8-UP when you
released the DIP version? Or was it just an issue of SIMM availability and
cost?
John
John,
There are several differences between the DIP and SIM versions of 8-Up!:
SIM version is configurable in 1/2 MB increments, DIP in 2 MB increments. SIM
can use 256K or 1M SIMs, DIP 1M DIPs only.
The primary reason for the DIP version is that the SIMs aren't as available as
they once were, while the DIPs are becoming more available. Also, our customers
wanted a DIP version.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics
Rick,
Thanks for the info on the 8-UP. Seems like the SIM is an idea that
hasn't really caught on in a big way.
John
It came out when you could pick up SIM modules for (ugh!) Macintoshes fairly
easily. 8-Up! SIM can use Mac SIM modules.
Rick Stevens/MicroBotics