#Sexism in Games
13 messages in this thread
Whoa… I've been reading this thread with (some) tolerance and mild
amusement, but there I draw the line…. "I do think sexism in gaming is on
the decline"… I submit that it never existed. If _you_ were to write a
video game (adventure), wouldn't you try to write one that interested you?
The stereotypical gamewright has been the young male. I love the way people
in this thread have mentioned 'heroic' ideals… without defining what the
term encompasses. "Mercy toward enemies" is not necessarily heroic if the
behaviour is inappropriate. I generally ignore protests against sexism,
myself…. because I think that as bad as stereotyping. An adventure,
IMAO, should be a subset of reality, in that it places the player as a
human in an unreal environment. If a player is going to select a female
character for a particular game, it's ridiculous to merely have it be a
male character with female features. It should have female attributes, and,
of course, the reverse is true. A male character shouldn't be neutered
merely to avoid charges of sexism. If he's portraying a Viking, he's likely
to view rape favorably, as an oversimplified example.
One never calls it "sexism" when one is on the controlling side. <grin>
If "sexism" is the -ism which claims that if you know a person's sex, you
know with certainty a great deal about that person's math abilities,
negotiating tactics, physical strength, annual cosmetic budget, and lots
more, then a game designer who allows that a full-figured woman can behead
the foe with a battleaxe just as savagely as can a steroid abusing man has
absolved her- or himself of charges of "sexism."
That is a fairly narrow definition. Anything which appeals to the glands
rather than the mind is "base," or "vulgar," or "low-brow." If the appeal
is to the adrenal glands, we have adventure-films, roller coasters,
shoot-them-ups. If the appeal is to the reproductive glands, we have
romance novels, Cinemaware box covers (usually), digitized Strip-Poker.
People are free to persue happiness where they will. If one finds it in a
first-rate production of Hamlet, and another in the World's First Stand-up
Rollercoaster the Shockwave where You Turn Upside Down, well that's what
makes markets. However, "Hamlet" should never pretend to be a wrenching
experience ("in our production the audience will be securely buckled in")
and "Shockwave" should never pretend to be a deep one ("this ride will make
you re-examine your life").
"Chamber of the Sci-Mutant Priestess," if judged by the cover, is not going
to provide the same sort of experience that Dungeon Master did. Dungeon
Master does a fine job of demonstrating that all body types (well, none of
figures would be confused with Mrs. Thatcher) make excellent champions.
I think Linda summed it up nicely. You're not aware of sexism in gaming
because it never affected you personally. I'm not sure why you jumped on
my particular sentiment — I came in late on this whole discussion — but
you are making an incredibly inaccurate set of assumptions based on a few
sentences which were directed to another gamer. I never said that every
game should be gender-neutral or even feminist in tone. I have played many
CRPGs and RPGs where my character was male. I just happen to think it is a
"plus" to play a female character. But your statement that sexism in games
"never existed"… perhaps not in *your* world. May you never be the
victim of sexism.
There's certainly a low-brow-male bias in the cover art and themes of
games, but there are problems with almost all computer games, as I see it.
I've pitched columns about this general topic to several magazines, but
they've always wanted to avoid incurring the wrath of advertisers. Heresy!
Someone who doesn't like games! I don't play computer games, among other
reasons, because the plots are stupid. If aliens land on Earth, why must
we blow them up? Why do I want to pretend to be a medieval petty thief? My
imagination is doing just fine, thank you, but I don't like D&D, either. I
don't pay any attention to sports – you think there's a connection? 🙂
I don't like D&D, either, but in my case that's a dislike of the rules
system, not of roleplaying games per se. I like roleplaying and pretending
to be someone else. (That's not saying that *everyone* should enjoy RPGs,
or that anyone who doesn't must be sick.) Sports and D&D… I read an
article on that somewhere….
John,
Out of curiosity (and professional interest), what would you like to see
in a game that would catch (and hopefully hold) your interest?
…BobR
Mary,
This whole topic of discussion bothers me a great deal, as I really had no
intention of starting a battle of the sexes. My own personal feeling, for
what they are worth are as follows:
I don't accept the idea that programming of male oriented games is sexist.
Webster defines sexism as "the economic exploitation and social domination
of members of one sex by the other, specif. of women by men." Economic
exploitation doesn't seem to apply in the context of games, except in the
form of advertising. Social domination might apply if the PURPOSE of
producing the game is to dominate women in some way, which I doubt is the
case. As for the advertising… this is a *really HOT* issue with me. I am
infuriated whenever I see a half-naked woman on the cover of a computer
game package. I won't name any names, for obvious reasons. This is a
blatant attempt to sell SEX to young males, which is a disservice to us
all. It exploits women, and it distorts the attitudes of boys concerning
ALL women. As far as the exploitation of women is concerned, I am almost as
angry at the female half of the population as I am with with male half. As
long as certain women will allow nude photographs of themselves to be
published in "MEN'S" magazines, nude footage in movies, etc., young men
will receive mixed signals about the roles women wish to play in our
society (I won't argue the issue of money/making-a-living/whatever
concering the above, its up to each individual to decide if their personal
dignity has a dollar value, enough said). I'm speaking from experience
here, and it is very difficult for me to do so. I STILL struggle with this
everyday, and its only by the grace of God that I can say what I'm saying.
I just don't think its fair to the women who DON'T want to be thought of as
SEX objects.
My second point is this: I recognize the need to reach out to the potential
female market, as well as the male market. Please read the note I have just
posted to Linda Fitzpatrick. I feel it addresses some of the issues brought
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up in this thread. Go ahead, whoever, beat on me if you wish. I just don't
want women saying to me "all men oppress women", as I've heard from women
at work, and I don't want men saying to me "you're not going to give in to
what those women want, are you?" 🙁
Perhaps we can find a common ground that suits all 🙂
Marcus
Marcus,
As no one seems to recall, I didn't start the discussion on sexism in
games. I have not said that "all men oppress women". I have not even said
that "all computer games are sexist". Why I am suddenly the center of
attention for things I didn't say, I don't know.
What I would like to see in a CRPG is a game that treats me like an
adult. Whether the central character(s) are male or female is not of
paramount importance; I simply said that I *prefer* to adopt a female
persona. Somehow, this has become "Oh, you think *every* game should be
non-gender-specific, and that *nobody* should write games that cater
primarily to adolescent males."
I offered one gamer's opinion — mine. My opinion won't sell very many
games at all; in fact, I apparently like things that don't appeal to the
majority of the buying public. I have no intention of "beating on you";
but please read what I wrote, not what someone else *says* I wrote.
— Mary
Mary, just so you don't continue thinking I'm a sexist monster (perhaps
sexist, but, a monster? <grin>), I have a dilemma with the gender issue in
a game I'm working on right now. I have in fact included a set of
characters, but right now they are only outwardly different. As I mentioned
briefly in one message, I _would_ like to play a game in a woman's persona.
It's going to be darned hard to tiptoe that line where the female character
isn't my personal stereotype of women, nor merely a male in female form.
Even if you disagree with me about this whole issue, I hope you wish me
luck on it <grin>. –Eet–
Jim,
Good luck on it. If you want to know how a woman might act in a
particular situation, ask several women (and get several different
answers).
— Mary
Marcus, a good message, and I (generally) agree with what you say about
advertising. I carry around in my wallet a Virgina Slims Ad… it shows an
obese, middle-aged woman of the 19-teens carrying two large baskets of
laundry, in an inset. The main picture is of a thin, expensively dressed
woman, wearing make-up, and evidently much younger… the caption reads,
"in 1909, it wasn't a womans word that carried weight"… if you consider
them both as _people_, I'd listen a lot more readily to the 1909 woman than
the 1990s woman in that ad. I could list the reasons here, but the should
be obvious, and I don't want to start another RWar by insulting the '90s
woman. (err the == they should be obvious).