#Upgrade
64 messages in this thread
Oh! Oh! (waving hand wildly)
Many questions…
1-does the 4.0 toaster board play the real time animations on a
2000 or does that require a 4000?
2-Has there been any improvement in the DVE compression?
3-What kind of upgrades for ToasterPaint?
Input..Input..Need more Input..
(This thing is going to have me begging on the street)
Here's what little I know:
1. Real time 24bit anim playback requires new Toaster & new computer.
(Anyone looking to buy a 3000? Cheap! :^)
2. DVE Compression? If you are referring to the blockiness of the digital
effects, then no there is not much improvement there, though they claim
the 'edges' are smoother. (Probably a benefit of smoother Alpha channel
ANIMs when using the AGA chipset.)
3. I haven't actually seen it, so I don't what improvements have been made
to TPaint, beyond the fact it will support HAM8 on the 4000, giving you
effectively 24 bit painting.
So, what have you heard?
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Hi folks,
Here's some more info for you.
The new Toaster will fit in either a 2K, 3K or 4K Amiga (The BNC's are
moveable).
It still only uses the video slot.
Realtime playbacks of animations are after they are rendered as iff's and
converted. They play back in realtime only on a 4000. They are ham8 (not
24bit) and look pretty good. Full screen or quarter screen at either
30fps or 24 fps. The animations are loaded directly from the Switcher and
load into ram.
New effects are great with more colors, cleaner edges and transparent
drop shadows.
Not many changes to Tpaint or Chroma F/X. CG you've heard about.
I haven't seen all the new stuff yet, but I am VERY familiar with the new
LW and can now answer questions about it (if any).
JG
John,
What limitations if any, (aside from ham8 playback) will the new LW software
have on the 2000 machines? Also, does the new Toaster card have harware
improvements that will benefit the 2000 series or is it strictly a variable of
the 4000 environment?
BTW- Thanks to all for posting this valuable information… keep it coming!
-Art
The new Toaster does have some hardware improvements such as a better
genlock that will work in any Amiga.
The new LW will benifit from having a few more interface colors for
certain selected items. I believe there may be a few other things coming,
but I can't talk about them until they are ready.
JG
Not true 24bit playback? Bummer. I've already been boasting to my Mac
buddies. Oh well, time to eat some crow – though Ham8 is not bad . . .
Questions about LightWave . . . . Too many. I need to see it and use it.
:^)
Thanks.
Impatiently waiting,
Erik Flom
I was glad to hear that the VT 4000 is A2000/3000 compatible, less the AGA
graphics, since I would undoubtably be getting the Toaster first and an
A4000 at a later date.
I suppose waiting has paid off for me, since the VT 4000 is compatible
with A3000/T video slots, I won't have to do anything fancy to get it to
fit now. *8D
With the VT 4000, does this mean that you'll be putting off oves to other
platforms for awhile? I'd love to see more of your work appear in VTU
issues.
I wonder what animation format they are using for the HAM8 playback?
Vance – Up and in Canada!
Well, the thing is I never WANTED to switch platforms.
(But, let's face it, plain HAM just don't cut it when you're doing 24bit
graphic editing, regardless of how fancy your dithering algorithms are!
:^)
Now the question is . . .
Do I keep the old system, or go for the 4000 and push the 'other' platform
purchase off for at least another year?
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. Too bad it's only HAM8. I was hoping for true 24bit. (Probably still
looks as good as the MPEG stuff on other machines though.)
If I had the cash, the choice would be obvious. I'd go for the A4000/VT
4000 and push back plans for the other platform. It'll allow the other
platforms to work out their inevitable bugs in their DTV products. Also,
prices may come down a little by then.
Personally, I'm hopelessly biased. As long as they keep improving the VT
and CBM keeps producing the Amiga (improving, also), I'll be sticking by
it. I was a C64 dude before I bought an A2000 and was just as dedicated.
As for HAM8, don't despair. CBM, as you know, has already stated that
they'll be integrating true colour 24bit when the AAA comes into effect.
And according to people who've compared HAM8 to Framstores, HAM8 is the
next closest thing in quality. It's definitely superior to DCTV.
Do you have ANY test/sample renderings that you have created that you
could post, or point me to anything you might have uploaded??
Vance
Well, at least the new Toaster card will work in our old systems until we
get 4000's, eh?
I used to be hopelessly biased, but there is just way too much going on
with the other platforms to ignore. The Amiga still has the best OS, but
the range and variety of software on the other platforms IS appealing.
(And, anyway, I'm waiting for the rumored Mac that's supposed to have a
DSP AND S-Video I/O. Supposed to be out in 6-12 months.)
HAM8 showed some VERY nice stills, but I still have as yet to see any of
my animations running on it, so I reserve judgement. AAA chipset is too
far down the road for me to wait for.
I have uploaded a number of pictures to the AmigaArts 24bit library.
Search for the keyword MUSEUM. They're all JPEG's, so you'll need at least
ViewTek to see them. There are also a couple of objects in AA's 3-D
library. STRATL.LZH is a Fender Stratocaster I touched up. There is also
an Earth object available for DL.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Erik,
The ham-8 realtime previews look pretty good. Real time is the key. You
can have ray tracing/motion blur/depth of field/etc. etc. and it will
always play back in reaal time. I think they are definitely good enough
for many applications such as wedding videography/etc.
JG
Erik… it **IS** true 24bit playback. Remember the animation playback is
not full screen, that means that the HAM8 mode will be able to use any of
the 24bit 16.8million colors. With the resolution used, there is not
enough pixels to take all of those colors. In that sense, it is 24bit.
-Jonathan
Sorry,
It is full screen playback at real time (either 24fps or 30 fps)
If rendered in Super Lo res, then you have a 1/4 screen playback.
JG
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. :^)
It's still a palettized system, and you're going to inevitably have the
same problems HAM6 has. I wouldn't trust it to go to Betacam SP.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. Isn't HAM8 a base palette of only 64 colors 'out of a palette of 16.7
million'?
No, HAM8 has a true 24bit pallete and there is absolutely no difference
between a quarter screen 24bit image displayed via AGA and a real 24bit
board.
-Jonathan
Uh, r u sure?
HAM8 is similar to HAM6 in that there is a base palette of 64 colors (true
24 bit colors), and other colors are created by using a delta from the
adjacent pixel.
If it was true 24bits/pixel, then it wouldn't be HAM, now would it?
Erik Flom
You are incorrect, HAM8 is not based on a register of 64 colors like
regular HAM but is based off of 256 register colors. The difference is
that regular HAM has a limit of 4096 colors on screen and in the palette.
HAM8, however, has a 16.8 million palette with an on-screen limit of 262
thousand colors. Any pixel on screen can be any of 16.8 million colors
with the total number of different pixels not exceeding 262,000. That
means that a quarter screen image which physically cannot have that many
pixels would be essentially, 24bit. In other words, a true 24bit display
and an AGA machine would be the same at a screen of that size.
-Jonathan
I hate to burst your bubble, but HAM8 is 8 bits per pixel. (Hence the
name HAM8) 6 of those bits are for the base colors (64) and the other
2 bits are the HAM modifier control bits. If HAM8 was based on 256
base colors you would still need more bits to control the 'Modify'
part of 'Hold and Modify' and it wouldn't be HAM8 any more, it would
be HAM10 or HAM12. Since you only have 64 base colors in a HAM8
image you will still get slight fringing on some color combos that
you wouldn't get on true 24 bit. If you want to see this for
yourself and you have access to an AGA machine and DPaint, go into
the pallet requester and make all of the base colors shades of grey.
Then select a bright red color from the HAM colors. Fill the screen
with white and put a red pixel anywhere on the screen and you'll see
fringing if you use magnify.
Don't take my word for it. HAM8 has been explained in almost every
magazine that has done a review of the 1200 or 4000 and any Commodore tech
support person shold be able to confirm this to you.
Ben Williams of Black Belt Systems is a good source to get a HAM8
explanation from.
Vance
Uh . . . . (He shakes his head violently to make sense of the
previous comment.) IF HAM8 uses 256 colors, and uses a Hold And
Modify technique, then it is IMPOSSIBLE for ANY PIXEL to be ANY
COLOR. There are specific combinations of color groupings that WILL
NOT display in their correct 24 bit colors using HAM techniques. And
what good is quarter-screen 24 bit color? Do you mean 320×200? (hah!
Boy, I'd like to do image processing on a display like that!) Thanks
for your 'constructive' input, Erik Flom
NOT… The difference between using a register based color scheme like
HAM8 and a true color display is most apparent in areas of smooth
color gradation. Bnading in the colors will be visible if the colors
can't vary smoothly enough, due to there not v\being enough of them.
HAM8 does look pretty damn good nevertheless.
If any?! Hoo, boy, what an offer! If my keyboard doesn't short out from
the drool, here goes:
Is there a kybd shortcut for Move now? Selecting in the views with the
mouse, and deselecting with / is cool, but you always had to go back to
the side for Moving (80% of the work on that menu is moves IMHO).
Any improvement in bump mapping? Mine always seemed 'grainey' on the
edges, even when smoothed.
How 'bout surface mapping speed. Always seemed to take too long. Is this
the improved antialiasing your article mentioneed, or are we talking just
the edges (which would be great anyway.)
With the new shape mapping (?) can I use, say, fewer polygons for a
cylinder and still not have the ends look like stopsigns? Is using the
fewer polygons what gives the speed increase, or is this mapping fast?
Booleans will be great. Now we can make the object before making the
holes!!! Are they easy to work with (initially anyway)?
Are you doing any more in-depth reviews in the near future for any of the
Mags? If so, which and when. (That way you can get paid for all this
work:-)) If not, what's the best way to get the info; IOW, is NewTek
gonna send out any info to the faithful?
Appreciate your time very much. Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.
>>Help, I've rendered, and I can't give up!!!<<
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
Ok, in answer…
1. Last time I talked to Stuart it sounded as if Move would have a
keyboard shortcut but I'm not sure if it's been implemented yet.
2. Bump mapping is improved. It is much faster (040 optimized) and with
new antialiasing routines, the edges as long as every thing else will be
smoother looking.
3. Surface mapping is also sppeded up as well as all of the procedurals.
4. I'm not sure what you mean by Shape Mapping. If you use an 8 sided
poly and look at the edges, it will always look like 8 sides.
5. Booleans are very easy to use. You have your object to be cut in the
foreground layer and the cutter in a background layer. There are a lot of
different boolean operations that you can perform.
6. I do plan an in depth review in the next(?) issue of VTU.
Nathan, When I saw Lee Stranahan Demo the new Lightwave it included
Deformation mapping that actually CHANGES the shape of the Objects rather
than faking it like bump mapping does.
Peter, et al,
Yeah, that's what I meant, didn't know the term to use. Thanks
Hey, thread-wise speaking of Nucleus Electronics and their SFC, did
anybody that went to NAB happen to notice if they were *REALLY* shipping
their Personal Editor? I've been waiting to see it, and if I made their
demo tape for about a year now, and still no word. The last time I
checked, they were still waiting for some low-heat CMOS chips to come in.
TAFNF.
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
Actually, if you want to get technical, the correct term is Displacement
mapping.
JG
John,
Word added to personal dictionary. Thanks.
We still gotta hit the stupid Escape key when done with a test render?
Seems that a mouse click would do just fine; I hate having to take my feet
off the desk. 🙂
… Nate, Emerald Video. Flyin' IFR on AP
I'm plugging to get the wireframe preview to automatically start loop
playing after being made so I don't have to get up off the couch!
JG
Can you find out if we still have to use that hokey 1/4 screen jobbie in
Toasterpaint.
And, very important…
Can you get Modelers improvements, any splines, AND/OR whacking?
How are getting online?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
You have all the information I've got at this point.
Both Video Toaster User & Desktop Video World have extensive preview of
LightWave 3.0, so I would recommend you go to the source of my
information. (Lessens the chance of misinterpretation. :^)
Getting online? Via modem. :^) (I'm confused, your sentence was clipped.)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Paul,
Modeler can now use splines. You could lathe a curve and it will generate
the polys for the object. The object itself still ends up being made out
of polys, but you can construct it all with splines and then 'patch'
across them to create your mesh of polys.
JG
Hi again 🙂
All that stuff you taught me is still soaked in 😉
Can we use colors now to show points that have been chosen in modeler? The
white on grey on black is miserable. I've been able to modify the colors
to my liking by patching the program itself, but I really need more
colors.
Can you think of any additions to what was said in VTU, AVID and the other
rag (sorry Lou, blank mind). Please tell me I can use more than 100,000
polys in Lightwave. Have the surface attributes been improved? I know
about the true bump mappimg, anything else? Could you upload a few (or all
🙂 ) screen captures of just Lightwave?
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
I haven't seen the latest latest interface for Modeler, but chances are
you'll have different colors for points and/or polygons.
You can have as many polygons as you desire (and as much ram as you have)
in a scene. You are limited to only 65,000 polys per object however.
This is usually not a problem. I've been doing average scenes lately with
about 190,000 – 230,000 polys. Also , there is a limit to about 1,600
points per polygon (again. not much of a problem). There is now
Luminosity mapping instead of a Luminous button and textures are being
worked on. Hopefully for the release, we will have a bunch of new ones.
I'll have to get permission to upload screen shots.
JG
Ahhh, those polygon counts make me jealous!
And Luminosity mapping too! (pant, drool)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
So far so good, thanks.
Can we have more than 150 objects in a scene, for particles and such.
I saw one of the under-sea vessels from the project you are working on. It
looks great! It was in the latest issue of CGW.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
150 Objects in a Scene? Hmmm Doing some Penguins for a "Remake" of
Batman 2??? hehehehehehe Remember Penguins is Practically Chickens.
I think my CURRENT Record for # of Objects in a Scene was 30, it was
for a SPACE Scene(what else?) with a Shuttle Flying by a Bunch of
"PODS"
Peter,
You have probably done better then 30 objects. Remember that Enterprise
model is really a group of a bazillion smaller objects! 😉
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
Actually, thanks to Syndesis, you can convert the Enterprise to one
object alone, or 108 objects as a scene.
Boy I have not used much or upgraded my copy of Interchange since
I moved from using Sculp to Turbo Silver way back when. I'll have to
look into upgrading my Interchange!
okokokokokokokok I meant 30 Distinct objects. I wish that Imagine
could keep the individual Colorings/Textures/brushmaps etc when
Joined. On objects like the Enterprise I'd prefer to Join it into a
single object and Merge the points to get rid of the uneccessary ones
but thats not possible right now as far as I can see.
That fact that the windows on the model were separate objects
allowed me to map the 24bit pic of my students to a window for my
mega zoom shot. But it DID take me 20 minutes just to locate and
select the correct widow object! Boy is that puppy complicated!
Remember my stupid worm-hole and the donut? I NEED A BILLION OBJECTS
BY FRIDAY!
You can have a single object composed of a ton of particles that you
morph, stretch, twist, etc. around.
Use Metamorphosis on a cloud of 'star' particles. Create a couple of
objects with the stars swirling a bit more in each object, then
Metamorph between them.
It works great.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Call Object Express at 1-800-EXPRESS. they can even Track your Billion
Objects thru their Intergrated systems of Fruzball Taco Attenuetors.
Did ya ever get the Wormhole to Work? I think a nice Essence Texture
mapped to a Disk which you use the GROW along Path FX over X # of frames
would work well.
Yes. I would definitely recommend subscribing to Video Toaster User
and perhaps one of the Amiga magazines such as Amiga World. There
are a couple of good tape series out there. I recommend Lee
Stranahan's tapes and John Gross' tapes on LightWave. (I don't want
to toot my own horn, but all the other tape's I've seen are pretty
bad, IMHO)
Acording to Allen, the new limit is at 400, he is looking at changing
it to limited to RAM.
I hope someday Allen decides to go his own course someday as I feel
that LightWave itself would do a whole lot better without the need
for the added Toaster. From what I understand, there are LightWave
units distributed alone, and without the need for the Toaster to
certain folks.
Wrong. The Toaster is absolutely required for LW.
Is it really? I have heard rumors of 'hacked' verisons of LW 1.0 that will
run without the Toaster. But, these were ONLY rumors, and I never saw one
in operation, so it could be untrue.
Short of the framebuffers for 24bit display, WHY would LightWave REQUIRE
the Toaster? Rendering ca be a pretty display independent sort of thing.
Thanks, & Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Wrong? I just go by what I'm told as fact by others. Talked to
Creative Computers the other day and the lass told me she uses
LightWave without a Toastercard and that her LightWave is not
inclusive to the Toaster. Apparently it's not available for the
general public… (Just airing what she told me)
Hmmm, It seems to me that Lightwave is really starting to use the
power of the Toaster 4000 with the realtime animation capabilities,
and its top notch frame buffer..
1. the real time animation requires the A4000
2. DVE compresion has been greatly improved.
3. The only thing ive heard about Toaster paint is that it is realtime HAM
-8 on Toaster 4000
Forrest
It does do realtime Ham8 poainting ( I was hoping it would!) a guy at NT
sales said today it didn't, but that ToasterPaint was going to have a
major overhaul in about 3 months. Was Byrd's Eye there with ToasterFX?
So DOES THE TOASTER 4000 BOARD HAVE A ZORRO 3 CONNECTION IN ADDITION TO
THE BASIC VIDEO-SLOT CONNECTION?
/Thanks for taking the time to Post this info – It's making my day!!
Dont know what type of connection, if its Zoro II to Zoro III, and I have
not been able to confirm from NeTek HOM 8 painting.
Forrest
Thanks Forrest-
So it's definately the video slot PLUS the inline Zorro, at least?
Thanks alot
My understanding is that it is not a Zoro III.
Forrest
The new Toaster ONLY uses the video slot.
JG
Hey John-
Boy, it's great to read all your messages – BTW I never thanked you for
the Lee Stranahan reccommendation (or, did I?) – anyway THANKS ALOT – it
was GREAT!
Congrats on working on SeaQuest – really look forward to seeing it.
Now a question – WHY wouldn't the New Toaster NOT use the in-line Zorro
slot – I would think there'd be some magical advantage (i.e. – tapping the
system in another, more amazing way – how about when AUDIO/& NON-LINEAR
EDITING finally appears?!) to incorporating that slot – I remember GVP
making a big deal about IV24 using it (although, it's not nearly as magic
as the VT)
Anyway, if you could explain, I'd appreciate it – I also think the
pricing on this stuff is phenomenal- 1800 for the new board AND 3.0 for
my old board is GREAT- I really look forward to LW3.0- Well thanks alot –
Bye
mike
I would guess that NewTek could just do add on boards that go in a Zorro
and connect to the Toaster if they need to in the future.
JG