#Should I Toast?
35 messages in this thread
Our company, being an R&D company involved with lasers and other optical
equipment, currently has the need to produce high-quality videos for
company overview, product demos, product training, proposals and other
areas. WE have been debating whether this is something that our company
can do internally or should we invest in outside resources. Here is some
advice I need: If we invest money into a Toaster setup, with an accelerator
card, TBC's and VCRs/Cameras, can we expect to put together the
aforementioned videos with little or no trouble. We understand the
learning curve of using a new product, but want to know, from *your*
experience using the product, whether or not it is worth our time and
effort to undertake.
As for technical expertise in our company, we have all sorts which range
from design/draftsmen(using AutoCAD R12) to Electronic Engineers. We would
like to do some animation derived from AutoCAD drawings we have made,
incorporating them with other filmed bits, and put together a finished copy
in-house.
Are we biting off more than we can chew? Thanks in advance for any
replies!
Kevin Welty
I think you would be pretty well off with a Toaster but be prepared to
virtually lose an employee in order to get up and running with animations.
It is also important to consider the expense of the single frame accurate
tape deck needed to put your animations to video. You probably need to
cough up about 6k to get such a deck. Lightwave 3D does a nice job
importing DXF files and this should be a nice fit. Make sure that your DXF
files have only as many surfaces and polygons as are absolutely essential
to get your point across.
I am in the business of providing this type of work. Should you decide to
forego the Toaster for yourselves, drop me E-Mail. I'm set up perfectly
for what you are looking for.
Best of Luck,
Jim Roof
Video Graphics Associates
Find an Amiga Toaster junky (like myself) and put him/her on your staff.
The learning curve isnt so bad if you can start half way up.
With skilled experienced techs the video part shouldnt be to bad
and at the start maybe you can send anims and more complicated stuff
out of house.
Sounds like fun…….
Sounds good. We have a number of people in the company that are very
interested in working with this type of equipment, of which I top the list!
<grin> There are some people in the company who have Amiga equipment
themselves and I am pretty conversant with that platform. As for getting
up and running, a company about 2 hours away offers all types of training
classes on the video toaster to get you up and running fast.
Now, would you consider a Amiga 2000 with a 68040 accelerator and extra
memory to be a sufficient starting platform? We have been offered a
pretty good deal with an Amiga 2000 & toaster hardware (+lots of other
stuff).
Thanks!
…Kevin
The Toaster will be the hub of your video system but there are
many other important s/w to also consider. Like Imagemaster, Dpaint
etc. etc. and alot of little s/w hacks that improve this system
greatly.
I started with an A1000 in '86 and its been a wild ride (I love it).
My system now consists of an A2000, Progressive 2000 040, 16 meg Ram,
Toaster, TBC I, DCTV….. I'd recommend going with an A2000, cheap
an lots of expansion (absolutely necisarry). An 040 is a must for
any 3D rendering, lots of ram will make things go much better.
Good Luck,
Glad to help
You mentioned a company about 2 hours away that offers training classes on
the Toaster, which company is it and where is it located?
I ask because I live in Tampa(2 hours from Orlando) and am curious if you
meant any company in my area. Of those in the area I know of CVA(St. Pete)
and Amazing Computers(Tampa).
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
The name of the company is Eagle Computers, located in Boca Raton, Florida.
… Kevin
Oh I see, you don't want to deal with anybody here in Tampa. :^)
I have heard, from Allen Hastings, that some of the most impressive
LightWave anims he has seen comes from the Orlando, Fl. area.
Congratulations on living in such a honored area.
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
Hmmm, we is your company located???? <g>
-Luke
We are located in Orlando, Florida, in the stomping grounds of several
*very* large production houses! 😉
—- Kevin
If you've got particular questions about the DXF import abilities in the
Toaster, please feel free to post them to the Syndesis section here – we
developed the TIO import / export system for the Toaster, to help it load
Wavefront, Swivel, DXF, and Sculpt and 3D Studio objects.
Thanks, I'll keep it in mind when we get to DXFing, should we choose to go
this avenue.
Thanks to y'all for the advice you have given. Now, if we can only get
these quotes in from local production houses.
—– Kevin
Kevin,
The question you must ask is how much are the individual videos you want
to make going to cost if you go with in-house vs. out of house.
In-house:
1) equipment: If you are a good shopper and can get good used bargains and
"B"stock, figure about $30-$40K for video and audio editing HW, SW and a
good camera, tripod lights and mic(s).
2) overhead: Setting up the system can be tricky if you are not careful.
Ground loops, RF interference, and synch problems can take a fare aomoutn
of staff-hours to sort out unless you have a real video wiz in the place
(as in Video engineer). If you plan to do your own animations, whether
from autocad (not too difficult to get the frames to video, BTW) or from
scratch, better plan on a full-time animator with a seperate machine for
the duration of the project.
3) production: A professional production company may be more
cost-effective in the long run since they already know the production
process and have worked with "audience response" enough to, perhaps, be
able to make a more aesthetically pleasing and more effective video.
Until you've been a party to some of these types of productions, you have
no idea how much work is involved prior to shooting any video. That work
costs. Materials for concept development and staff-hours galore.
Someone else may be able to give better numbers than I can, but a 15
minute video for a high-tech company with some animation (system flows,
company growth, flying titles) can run to $200K, especially if multiple
shootin sites are involved.
Regarding the Toaster, the transitions beyond fate and cut are of little
use in industrial applications where you want the production values to be
so solid and subtle that the subject is noticed, not the production. The
primary areas of the Toaster that aid in this effort are ToasterPaint and
LightWave and to a lesser extent, CG. These slices take a lot of time to
learn to use effectively and efficiently at the level you are speaking of.
<continued>
If you decide to go internal, you should budget for someone to come in
and train your video staff in the use of those slices. Plan about 8
hours each for paint and LW, CG about 4 hours. That time spent with a
qualified Toaster trainer can save months on the "go-it-alone" route.
I would say that unless you are prepared for a large initial outlay and to
budget $100K/year in manpower costs you may want to try to contract the
work to a local production house.
To get a real feel for waht it might take, find a good company "brag"
video for a company in your type of business and about your size. Watch
it and jot down every expense you can think of associated with the video.
Animations, camera work, sound, lighting, actors/narrators, direction,
script development (including story boarding until the final concept is
"solid") even location search may be required. Then there is
duplication, and packaging. Don't forget post production suite expense
and production equipment rental/purchase.
You might even consider contracting a production house to do the company
brag video to see all that goes into it, then decide if you want to do
your own product, training, proposal videos.
wmc – via Autopilot!
While I can see your point, I dont feel that we are in need of broadcast
quality at this point. True, there are videos such as a company overview
that require a higher quality, but for the most part a sequence put
together to enhance a presentation should not require tons of equipment
upfront.
To give you an idea of some of the projects on which we would use this
equipment, one job we are working on has a programmer setting up a video to
show live action video with superimposed graphs and figures. He puts a lot
of effort into the mediocre results he gets, but these results satisfy the
terms of the contract. Sure, if we wanted it polished and complete we
could always carry it farther, but most of the scope of our work integrates
with existing presentations in that the video does not tell the entire
story.
We aren't trying to compete with a professional production house and I dont
think we need to get into that class of equipment and/or expertise to get
viable videos done. In any event, if we do branch out, it seems that the
toaster will allow us some flexibility and cost savings in rendering
animated sequences that would be too cost prohibitive if done by an outside
firm. We have on staff a number of employees with extensive experience
with AutoCAD 3D w/ Renderman & AutoShade, so the concept of animating a 3d
object is not really all that new to use.
Thanks!
… Kevin
Kevin,
You might be able to get away with an endcoder/genlock, DPaint, a titling
program and image processing software plus some file converter (ADPro with
pro pack add-on, ImageMaster, Broadcast titler, SuprerGen 2000S). These
are items that could be found used rather inexpensively now, and if you
just want a cuts only, superimpose, and cut/fade type transitions, this
will give youn ice looking results with minimum effort on something like a
Panasonice AG1960 deck. Master in S and dup to VHS will give very nice
results most of the time.
Be warned. If you get a Toaster, first there all the add-ons (TBCs Sync
generator, etc) then you will inevitabley loose someone in the world of
Lightwave. Basically after the first 20 minutes most people I know with
Toasters get past the transitions and find serious uses are ToasterPaint
CG and Lightwave. Toaster Paint and Lightwave are essentially like
unlimited frontiers – very easy to get lost on a fun tangent of creative
exploration that may n ot havemuch to do with the job – and its
addicting.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I wonder just how many Toaster owners never even use LightWave. I think
it's a significant number. They never touch it. They do CG, transitions,
and maybe some painting – but no 3D.
That's too bad, becuase if I was assinging value to the Toaster it would
be 80% software, and in that category, 80% would be in the ToasterPaint/LW
when used to complement each other, in particular. The CG is almost a
throw-away. I've heard that even BT via the Toaster GenLock beats Toaster
CG. I know SuperGen and BT do… :^{
wmc – via Autopilot!
Toaster CG's not bad. I see it on TV all the time :^)
Later
Except when compared to BT and a SuperGen 2000S. Then it looks not so
hot.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Well, as it stands from my initial inquiries and looking into the prospect
of the Video Toaster, it will be a while before I can get enough enthusiasm
in my company for such a move. One thing I have been noticing as of late
is that Creative Labs is busy buying up technology, positioning themselves
as the PC Multimedia leaders, their latest acquisitions to include E-MU and
the Video Spigot. Also, I cant recall the name of the firm but there is a
NewTek rival that is now positioned in the PC market with a suite of boards
which appear to do the same work as the Video Toaster, albiet for about
twice the price(retail).
While competition will drive this price down, it seems that video
production is pushing heavily into the pc domain and it's suprising NewTek
hasnt established a foothold yet into this market. Although, who knows
what they are working on behind closed doors and non-disclosure agreements.
I ahve heard any number of stories saying how it was impossible for the
Video Toaster to run in a Intel/PC environment, but every soo often I see
the occassional reference suggesting a PC version of the Toaster. Case in
point, a friend at work said he was positive that he saw a demo of the
Video Toaster on New COmputer Chronicles and they said that there was an
IBM PC-compatible Video Toaster card. An ad I recently saw for the Kitchen
Sync had embedded in the ad a price for Video Toaster control software and
had prices for both Amiga and IBM PC versions!
I think I'll sit back, wait and see what happens during the first two
quarters of this year befor emaking a final choice. Thanks for all the
feedback!!!!
….. Kevin
Well, as it stands from my initial inquiries and looking into the prospect
of the Video Toaster, it will be a while before I can get enough enthusiasm
in my company for such a move. One thing I have been noticing as of late
is that Creative Labs is busy buying up technology, positioning themselves
as the PC Multimedia leaders, their latest acquisitions to include E-MU and
the Video Spigot. Also, I cant recall the name of the firm but there is a
NewTek rival that is now positioned in the PC market with a suite of boards
which appear to do the same work as the Video Toaster, albiet for about
twice the price(retail).
While competition will drive this price down, it seems that video
production is pushing heavily into the pc domain and it's suprising NewTek
hasnt established a foothold yet into this market. Although, who knows
what they are working on behind closed doors and non-disclosure agreements.
I ahve heard any number of stories saying how it was impossible for the
Video Toaster to run in a Intel/PC environment, but every soo often I see
the occassional reference suggesting a PC version of the Toaster. Case in
point, a friend at work said he was positive that he saw a demo of the
Video Toaster on New COmputer Chronicles and they said that there was an
IBM PC-compatible Video Toaster card. An ad I recently saw for the Kitchen
Sync had embedded in the ad a price for Video Toaster control software and
had prices for both Amiga and IBM PC versions!
I think I'll sit back, wait and see what happens during the first two
quarters of this year befor emaking a final choice. Thanks for all the
feedback!!!!
….. Kevin
Kevin,
I'm a PC man from way back; in fact, my primary occupation is as a software
developer for the IBM platform. However, based on everything I understand,
Newtek has absolutely no plans at present to develop a PC based version of
the Toaster. There are several PC products out there in the way of editing
equipment that do offer a great deal of control over the Toaster via the
Amiga serial port, though. I use one of them myself, called the Editizer.
Runs in Windows, and pops up a cute little window that looks just like the
Toaster's control screen on the Amiga.
The PC-based competitor you speak of is called Matrox Studio, and actually
runs far OVER twice as much. I was hard to convince at first, but I
certainly don't regret the purchase of the Amiga gear for video work. One
pleasant surprise was the "giveaway" pricing of Amiga software! Believe me,
the difference is absolutely astounding.
Good Luck,
Jerry Hatchett
And I think that's why NewTek plans to sell the LW Pro upgrade separately.
Supporting LW may prove to be as resource-consumptive as the rest of the
Toaster. (Note I did not say that they planned to un-bundle it, or
anything like that.)
John,
Do you mean that there will be two LW modules – a basic and a Pro? Or do
you mean that for the upgrade, you get Effects, CG, Tpaint, ChromFX for an
arm and Effects, CG, Tpaint, ChromFX AND LWPro for an arm and a leg?
(Just joking – I had no problem with the U/G in the past… seemed
fair…)
If someone were to buy a Toaster after the next upgrade, would LW be
included as part of the basic package?
wmc – via Autopilot!
I'm not a NewTek representative, although I often play one on Compuserve.
🙂 Even if I knew the details of the LW PRo marketing and sales, I
probably couldn't say a thing. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
My guess? It's going to be marketed as an add-on for those people who must
have the latest and greatest, and then folded into the regular package in
the next major upgrade, which might be a long way off. But that's only my
personal, unfounded GUESS.
John,
I know you don't work for them. Neither does Mr. Gross, but he provides
good support and seems to be the closest person to NewTek I can find who
is interested in LW update ideas. I thought thought maybe you were
developing more TIO stuff and had some info.
The hopeful thing in your guess is that they might do a LW upgrade
independent of a gerneral update. That would be good for '040 users and
some of the annoying little bugs.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Let's be a bit more organized about this. Why not expand on your ideas for
LightWave, and type them into a file. Then, post it in the libraries here,
and post it to the LightWave mailing list. Gather a few more collections of
ideas from other people. Then, I'll take them all, and forward them
directly to the LW Pro beta coordinator, as well as Allen Hastings and
Stuart Ferguson. I will insure them land directly on their desktop mail
computer. It can get no closer than that.
However, you're probably a little late, because I know they are trying to
wind up the LW Pro beta process, which means they're probably not
interested in hearing about features for *this* release – maybe the next.
Timing is everything. 🙂
Many Toaster owners ONLY use LW like me, the board is a great
brodcast quality dongle. Mostly use DCTV for paint s/w but the
toasters composite signal is far supperior to DCTV. Not knocking
DCTV at all but I wish they'ed upgrade DCTV paint like promised.
Lightwave is very user friendly and I doubt many toaster users
don't atleast want to use it. Its not that tough compaired to
other s/w.
Later
I'm afraid I wouldn't be one of them. I don't own a VT yet, however, I AM
too hooked on 3D to not use LightWave. When I get the Toaster, I'll be
using ALL of its software. *8>
Vance
Count me in as one of those who very regulary *warps* out of normal time,
thoroughly engrossed in a program(or programming) only to arrive back in
relative time and realize HOURS have gone by.
Gee, maybe what I need is a human Time Base Corrector! 😉
… Kevin
Naaahh… Einstein described that as a subjective experience of the
relativity of time. Just make sure you are going close to the speed of
light and you will come back slightly younger than if you hadn't drifted
at all :^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
AHem! those positionable effects are great for moving a little arrow around
the screen, pointing out the parts of said widget! and the sheep!
Ooooh! I forgot about all those agricultural stations… ;^}
wmc – via Autopilot!