#Commodore is GONE…!!
11 messages in this thread
Considering that the Video Toaster is, at heart, a software-emulated
video signal switcher (with a few other things thrown in), I don't see how
it can be ported to any computer platform that doesn't deal in native-
fashion with the NTSC television signal — and this means "syncing" all
the way down to that dreaded 15.75Khz (I think) that everybody used to
bitch about on the Amiga because it "flickered", and that, to my
knowledge, no other computer maker uses (considering the paucity of
multiscan monitors that support that scan rate).
Remember: We're not talking about "VGA to NTSC Converters" here: NewTek
needs a computer that can _input_ two separate NTSC signals, do whatever
necessary video cleanup to them (Time-Base Correction), blend and/or
switch between them, add any desired graphic overlays (often animated),
and then _output_ this combined collaboration to a "broadcast-signal"
level that makes VHS recorders look like windup toys — and do it all in
_real-time_, i.e., live, i.e., on-the-air.
And bear in mind that NewTek never could manage a PAL Toaster — even
though the Amiga is "dual-standard", and even though PAL is itself a
broadcast-television standard signal — _apparently_ (a Toaster-user could
confirm this; I'm only guessing) because there is enough difference in
_black-burst_signal_levels (now _there's_ an arcane topic) to screw up
something in the Toaster's control-software; in any event, it has to do
with signals which _are_ televised, but which _do_not_ appear on-screen.
Lightwave? That should be easy enough to port; I'm surprised that
people like Greg Teegarden are still complaining that they're "stuck with"
Toasters while all the cool guys are using SGIs — but since Dr. Allen
Hastings has been working on this program since it was called "VideoScape
3D" (remember that one A500 owners?), it might, like Workbench, be _so_
tied up in the Amiga coprocessors that it can't be directly ported (again,
I'm guessing). All I know for certain is that VideoScape 3D was capable
of rendering polygon-based object-animations (in 4096 HAM colors) while
PCs needed special "vector monitors" to even display polygons….
And, in re your title: Commodore isn't really "gone" yet anyway (no, I
didn't attend the online conference): If in fact this whole thing hasn't
been a diversion to get rid of the (to Irv and co.) annoying Commodore
Shareholders Movement, there is plenty enough reason to believe that the
"liquidation" of a company with nearly no physical assets is just some
sort of corporate tax-and-liability smokescreen; and since nobody out here
really knows the intricacies of who-holds-what, there remains the strong
possibility that — as has been mentioned from Europe — a "wholly-owned
subsidiary" can suddenly become a "holding company".
Last I heard (when I actually had reason to call West Chester several
days ago) is that everything Amiga-related in the US was being referred to
Creative Equipment Inc.; somebody out here posts a fax from CEI to dealers
not to panic; and my tiny local dealer says that all of a sudden hardware
is now available again, but it's coming from Canada. Sounds to _me_ like
Irv and co. are cutting the head from a hydra … but how many heads does
the beast have left?…
> I don't see how it can be ported to any computer platform that
> doesn't deal in native- fashion with the NTSC television signal
Not a big deal. They ought to just put the NTSC stuff right in the Toaster
itself. Have the toaster motherboard handle video in/out. The computer just
runs the software.
The video memory scanning hardware would be almost identical to normal computer
video, unless interlace was used (easy to deal with). The timing is the only
issue and there are single chip solutions to this which cost less then $3.00
each in volumes of ONE.
This is _not_ rocket science. It's not like Commodre came down from the
mountain with the "One True Chipset". Anybody can do NTSC, esp NewTeK.
If it were in the Toaster itself, then the Toaster could be a card which could
plug into _any_ computer and their market would explode.
—– Andrew
If it's not a big deal, why hasn't NewTEk done it? When the Toaster first got
hot, story was that Mac and Intel types floated over to Topeka with bags of
money to do the conversion. NEwtek couldn't hack it cuz the OS and the chipsets
for the Amiga were to critical ti its success. They'd have been foolish not to
convert if it were easy.
> If it's not a big deal, why hasn't NewTEk done it?
Why bother? They were selling as fast as they could and the Amigas just kept
coming. In effect, you don't fix, what ain't broke!
But now that Commodore is is deep doo-doo, they had better be looking else
where.
I will again state for the record. NTSC is _NOT_ rocket science. It was
choosen because it allows cheap systems. That's it. Encoding and decoding is
_very_ simple. Most computers don't support it because business demands
crisper video than NTSC can deliver within its spec.
I will also put forth the question. How much do you think C= spent for NTSC on
the A500? Not a lot I bet. What they did, anybody else can.
—- Andrew
Although encoding and decoding NTSC is very simple, it is very hard to do
it right. Even the best of the off the shelf encode/decode chips used in
the VGA to Video products do not put out anything that you would want to
actually broadcast. And I'm sure Commodore was using earlier, less
expensive parts for the Amiga video outs. <g> The 4000 and 1200 composite
video does look pretty good however.
From the quality of the signal, I think Newtek spent a lot of time on the
video encoding/decoding circuits. They improved it with the analog filter
circuitry in the 2.0 version and again when the Toaster 4000 hardware came
out.
I believe it was Mark Randall whom I saw publicly state that Newtek had
been offered a lot of money to do a port of the Toaster and he said that
they would never do a PC Toaster. So I figured there was a technical
reason the Toaster, IN IT'S PRESENT FORM, would not work in a PC. Now
that's not saying that a PC card could not have the same basic
funcionality as a Toaster, just that Newtek won't be moving the Toaster
technology in it's present form to the PC.
*SPECULATION ON* I'll bet they have dropped any hardware development work
on the Amiga and have been working to develop new Mac (1st), and PC (2nd),
technology from scratch for some time. If they're not, that may be why a
lot of top peple abandoned ship. *SPECULATION OFF*
And, just to restate this, there is a technical reason why there is no PAL
Toaster. The Toaster is very dependent on the NTSC color encoding scheme.
When an RGB graphic is written to the Toaster's frame buffer, the software
acually calculates what the digitized NTSC signal would look like and
writes that into the framebuffer. If they rewrote their software, they
could probably write a PAL signal to the framebuffer. With hardware mods,
they could output PAL. But… no DVE wipes. PAL uses a different color
encoding method. The clever trick Newtek came up with for doing all those
<continued>
neat DVE's, breaks under the PAL color encoding system. A Toaster without
DVE's or which only worked with black and white video would probably not
be a big seller. Even in Europe. <ducking> The external PAL transcoder
is probably a better way to go. I'm sure SOMEONE in Europe has been using
a Toaster with a transcoder.
Anyway, you are absolutely correct that doing what a Toaster does on a PC
card (or sandwich of cards anyway) is not impossible. Newtek's brilliance
was in the gestalt of the mix of the hardware, software, and marketing,
and timing. They made a direct hit on a growing market that was not being
tapped by anyone else at the time.
What would be really cool is if someone would take the Videonics MX-1 and
put that on a PC card with an integrated 24 bit VGA display. Bundle it
with some good software for about $5000. I don't see any reason the
motherboard in an MX-1 could not be put on a card.
-Jerry Thompson
>>Not a big deal. They ought to just…<<
Shhhh!
You wouldn't want to give Newtek any ideas, now would you? I'm sure that
they've never had any clue about this in the past… either that, or
they've just chosen to design a board that ignores the European market
_and_ place all their eggs in the basket of a computer bound to become
obsolete.
"If in fact this whole thing hasn't
been a diversion to get rid of the (to Irv and co.) annoying Commodore
Shareholders Movement, there is plenty enough reason to believe that the
"liquidation" of a company with nearly no physical assets is just some
sort of corporate tax-and-liability smokescreen"
I'd dearly love to see your factual reasoning for this statement.
Jerry
Jerry-
I'm sure Challeron meant the bit about CSM as a joke, but I think there
is some reason to believe that something fishy has been going on with C=
for some time now.
Paul – Minus Pins!
"I think there is some reason to believe that something fishy has been going on
with C= for some time now"
Considering that Irving Gould, owner of 20% of the stock, would be the
biggest loser, that strikes me as kind of unlikely.
Bad management, on the other hand, happens and can't really be called fishy.
Just bad.
Jerry
Jerry,
what price did Irv pay for each of the shares that make up his 20%?
Also, does he still have 20%? Furthermore, what is the valuation placed
upon the senior debt that he holds? What is the ratio between that
valuation and the valuation placed upon the stock?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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