#FLATBED SCANNERS
26 messages in this thread
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone could help me out. I'm wondering when buying a colour
flatbed scanner, what would be the MINimum dpi resolution that would give very
good results. I have seen a new HP flatbed that has a dpi of 600 and enhanced
resolution of 2400. As I understand for colour scans I would have a MAX
scanning dpi of 600, as 2400 is only for black and white line work. I would
like to know what some of you are using as a scanner, for scanner materials.
— I find the gif image files that were scanned from magazines, like sports
illustrated are amazing compared to the actual original, what type of scanner
would do this ??? would a 600 dpi machine such as HP be capable of doing this
?? Thanks very much to anyone who can answer this. P.S. right now I'm using a
200 dpi colour HAND HELD scanner, and don't see how going up a 100 dpi to a 300
dpi FLATBED scanner would really be any great improvement, — or is this the
wrong way of thinking ?
thanks in advance to any and everyone who gives me some info!
Mark Schneider
Mark-
Let me know what you find out!!…E-me
Hello ?
find out about what ?
hello ?
hmmmm,
ok, bye.
Mark,
>> flatbed scanner<<
I've suggested and had a lot of luck with the Micortek line of scanners for my
customers. There is one that I particarly like called the Scanmaker II SP
(stands for single pass). It has a system call DCR (Dynamic Color Rendition)
which is just a fancy way of saying that it comes with a color target and
software to calibrate the scanner from time to time. It also has a
transparency option available for 35mm and other film formats. It works well
with Adaptec SCSI adapters so if you already have one you won't even have to
open your system to install it.
Another nice one is one by Epson. They have a version which will work thru a
bi-directinoal parallel port (most systems come with them today).
You get what you pay for. The Epson is nice, but the Microtek is higher
performance and has the color calibration system.
Hope that helps.
Ang, President, Dynamic Technologies, Inc.
An Autodesk Systems Center for Multimedia in MD
I'm testing out a Microtek ScanMaker II-HR. It seems to be a three pass scanner
and suffers from colour alignment problems. I have not found a way yet to fix
this. Scans at 600dpi of four colour printed material are pretty nice – the
halftone dots are scanned in nice and big. Scans from photos are fine too.
(barring colour fringing from the alignment)
I do want a look at the new HP. They wouldn't let me actually scan something at
Comdex. Didn't want to take up disk space was the excuse, so I have no idea how
good a scan it will make. The prescan looked good…
Hi Peter,
ahh, flatbeds, well let's try to stir up some conversation here!
Ok, first of all, I recently read an article on flatbeds in a local computer
paper, they did a few tests with single pass, and 3 pass scanners,
first they say: NEVER BUY ANYTHING BUT… A SINGLE PASS FLATBED SCANNER
they found that each pass didn't exactly scan exactly the same, therefore the
image was not as crisp as the single pass scanner, also it takes 3 times as
long! also colour reproduction was worse with a 3 pass scanner.
Here, the price of a 3 pass scanner is 599$ – Relisys (model 2400)
1 pass scanner .. 899$ – Relisys (model 2412)
Also with a 1 pass scanner doing a colour preview is a lot faster.
(I'm taking this from a magazine).
Now, even the more expensive scanner at 899$ is still only at 300 DPI,
and lots of people on local bbses have told me to steer clear, as this is too
low for doing quality scans.
That new HP scans at 600 dpi, and I saw it work, very nice results. The thing
I want to know, is.. will it do scans like the ones you see of calender girls
in .jpg form, or .gif form ? ones you find on your local bbses. I find these
are very nicely scanned and wonder if they could have been done with a 600 dpi
machine. Anyway, if you have more questions, I'll try to answer, and…perhaps
anyone else reading this could help us out.
by the way, you are right, the files will get bigger with 600 dpi, but remember
that after scanning you'll probabally crop the images anyway, (some of them)
thus reducing those nasty little bytes that add up so fast!
With the flatbed you are using … what is the dpi that you are scanning at ? I
mean the optical dpi, or real scanning dpi the machine says ?
just curious,
…
ok, bye for now
Mark in Canada.
>>will it do scans like the ones you see of calender girls in .jpg form, or
.gif form<<
I'm trying to work that out myself.
>>what is the dpi that you are scanning at<<
The machine we've got for now is optical 600. And it does a very good job of
picking up the halftone dots on 4 colour print jobs (calender girls (actually,
I haven't tried to scan a calendar girl. There is girl calendar in the next
office over that I could appropriate)). I am using an anime art book for 4
colour source.
The combination of unclean scan and halftone dots and moire between the print
dots and the scan dots makes for kinda yucky scans. I am trying to see if a set
of parameters can be arrived at that give happier results.
I do wonder if the really nice scans from print media are made with some more
analog method like video scanning. I did see a video capture device at Comdex
that was giving very pretty output, but they were using 4×6 transparencies on a
light box…
Anyway, I just don't know. Something no doubt is possible. I don't know if the
tool is on my desk or not.
– gruhn
PS, thanks for the confirmation on the 3pass 1pass stuff.
I think you will have some problems with "most" consumer and prosumer scanners.
There are 2 losses of resolution. The first is in the photo you are scanning.
Depending on how the photo was shot ie- what was meant to be most in focus, f
stops for depth of field, lenses and film used. Then you try to scan it,
whatever the resolution say 300dpi or 600 dpi at 100% you are now going to
bring out those inherent "flaws" in the photo itself, plus the noise "analog"
to digital transfer. Then of course there is color calabration of the monitor
AND the scanner which will add to the total "degradation" of the image. I have
been using a microtek 3 pass scanner for some years for medically imagery and
medical transparencies and have gotten "very acceptable" results with tweaking
after the image is digitized. There is an excellent article on this in Adobe
Magazine which is an extension of the tutorials for photoshop. The title of
the article is How-To Looking Sharp—Using Photoshop's Unsharp mask filter
to produce crisp sharp images. Adobe Magazine March/April 1995 pg51. I would
say take an image that was scanned in from various scanners and play around
with this mask and I think you will see some excellent results. If you want I
can upload an image of a CT scan of the lumbar spine.
Sam
Medical Media
Thanks for the info.
Yes, there is a definite trade off for dollars involved.
Scanning from photographic and line art sources isn't so bad in general. The
big problem comes when trying to scan halftoned colour art. Despeckle helps for
that, but is still not a cure-all.
– gruhn
Hi Peter,
Hmm, no problem, I really appeciate all the info other users are giving you and
I and others. This is the magic of the forums. When people band together and
help out when they can.
— Here is a story, about 6 months ago, I was working for an animation shop,
and the guy there that does the imaging stuff, had a scanner (FLATBED) hooked
up to his computer. One day, I bring in a very old picture of my grandfather,
it was not black and white, but … kind of the look they try today to make a
picture look old .. sort of brownish. — Anyway, he scanned this picture, and
when it cam out on the computer screen, it took my breath away, it looked
EXACTLY like the original!, he also had a colour printer hooked up, and he
printed it out, cut it for me, and gave me a copy of this picture that you
would find amazing. I really could not tell the difference between the two.
Sorry to say, I should have written down the model and brand of this scanner
for reference in the future. … I had also seen him scan stuff from Sears
catalogues, and it looks super nice. If you really want to test this printer,
try taking some photograps, not .. 35 mm stuff, but anything that a
professional photographer has taken, … family photos, marriage photos etc,
and try some scans at the max resolution of that machine, also try some
pictures from those catalogues like Sears, or any mag that has some pretty
decent pictures. You'll find you'll have a better way of rating how the colour
of adjacent pixels produces the actual image. Anyway, take it easy, and have a
good week-end.
Hope you get back to me, by the way, what kind of scanner is it ? make and
model ?, it is interesting because you said it was a 600 dpi optical. That is
the same resolution of the brand new HP flatbed that came out last month.
ok, bye for now
Mark in Montreal
Mark,
In reference to your scanner questions:
I use a flatbed quite often (ScanMaker IIxe) for print illustration and have
some hints or tips you might find useful (I hope).
Rarely does anyone need a final image at any higher resolution than 400 dpi.
This resolution is generally used when the scanned image will be output at a
larger size than when origianlly scanned. It's good for slides or images that
will be turned into posters.
"Most" print images in magazines and books (except for fine art books) are
scanned at 300 dpi. The formula used is: twice the halftone dots being used by
the printer. So let's say that your image will be printed in a magazine that
uses 133 line (dot) halftone screens; then your image should be scanned at
(technically) 266 dpi. Most people round the dpi up to 300 just to insure good
quality. Using this formula, the printer is getting four pixel dots of color
information for every one ink dot that goes on the page. This helps him/her get
a really accurate ink dot and cuts down dramatically on the pixelation or
stair-stepping that happens in digital images.
The reason why a scanner should have the highest dpi possible is because if you
want to scan a 2" image and enlarge it to 8", you will need to pack 2400 dots
into that 2" scan so that when it gets enlarged to 8", it still has 300 dots
per inch. (You would be scanning your original image at 1200dpi.)
And when scanning images for 3DS or images that will only exist in a computer,
inches no longer factor into the picture and all that matters is the proper
resolution to get the detail you require. Do I have you TOTALLY confused? If
not, go back and read this again!!
All the best, Sean Platter
Hi Sean,
wow, some very good info, I'm printing it out right now, the discussion of
actually blowing up a 2"x2" to say 4"x4" never came up. That is good and I
didn't think of this.
What is the purpose of changing an image's dpi in an image program, one of the
users told me that sometimes you would load an image, say at 400 dpi, then
change it to 96 dpi. I have no idea why. I tried this yesterday, and I saw
absolutely no change in the image on the screen, I checked the image info to
make sure it changed, and it said it had, but no change in what the image
looked like. Would this not make the image look grainy on the screen ? If you
scan at 400 dpi, why would you want a 96 dpi image in the long run ??? I'm
confused!
Thanks for any info !, and thanks for the info you just gave me!.
Mark in Montreal.
Mark,
Glad I could help!
>> What is the purpose of changing an image's dpi in an image program, one of
the users told me that sometimes you would load an image, say at 400 dpi, then
change it to 96 dpi. I have no idea why. <<
This is something you will have to determine for yourself, but there are times
when I do this too. Here's why: usually a scanner's software has only the
barest image editing capabilities. Many times, the scanner software does not
use the highest quality pixel interpolation routines out there; whereas,
Photoshop, Photostyler, et.al. use very good routines to take an image packed
with pixels and reduce it while still holding detail and accurate color
information. So depending on what type of quality you want, you could either
scan at the dpi or resolution you actually want; or scan it at a higher
resolution and then have a better program do the reduction for you. The person
you talked with earlier might be opting for the high quality route every time
he/she scans, but that (like everything in art and design) is purely up to you
and your personal preferences! :~)
All the best! Sean
hI Sean,
geez, you really know your stuff, what you told me really makes sense, hmm, now
by changing the dpi from 400 to 96, say… this would in theory make the file
smaller ? but should not be any different on the screen when I'm looking at it
I guess. (if the image is very good to begin with)
Mark,
thank you for the info, just printed it .
>> now by changing the dpi from 400 to 96, say… this would in theory make
the file smaller ? but should not be any different on the screen when I'm
looking at it I guess. (if the image is very good to begin with) <<
You got it!
There will be a difference in detail, but depending on what level of
quality you need, you might not notice it. Take some scanned photo of
a babe-in-heat from one of 'those other services' and notice a strand
of her hair… now reduce the dpi by one half (like from 150dpi to
75dpi) and look at that hair again. That will tell you what happens
when the resolution of an image is decreased. (If you're a nice young
man and don't have any images like I suggested in my lesson above,
then use an image with writing or lettering on it. I don't want to
feel like I might be soiling an innocent mind!)
All the best! Sean
Hi Sean, hahahaha, that is a good one, sure I have a few of those …
gifs or .jpgs on my computer somewhere, I'll check out what you mean,
… haha, oh by the way, I have to say this…. Download MEIER.ZIP,
this is one of the most amazing IPAS routines, I don't know if you
tried it but it is amazing… and it is not crippled!, imagine…
point to a light in a viewport, right click with the mouse, and drag
the mouse down jus a bit, poof, the light is now off, right click
again, pull down, and the light is back on!, touch an object, pull
right, the object is deleted, or hidden, etc, it is mind boggling!,
and you can enter any command you want, and the program will actually
learn that movement you do, then when you do it again with a selected
object, it does what you want it to do, you can do all of this even
with selection sets that the program creates. anyway, I can't do the
program justice, but you will say the same thing after spending 5
minutes playing with it, I was fooling around erasing some objects,
clicking lights on and off, etc, it really saves time. Anyway,
thanks very much for giving me the info on the dpi settings! bye for
now Mark.
PMJI – what "new" HP scanner. I was figuring to get the HP II CX which is
pretty old, what's their new offering?
>>what "new" HP scanner. I was figuring to get the HP II CX which is pretty
old<<
HP IIIp I think they are calling it. They seem to be replacing the IIcx slot
with it. 600 optical I think and same price. The software looks pretty slick.
Scanner looks pretty nice. I haven't been able to see a real scan. Only saw the
machine at Comdex this past, and the lady there wouldn't save a scan so I could
look at it. Didn't want to take up hard disk space. I didn't want to tell her
she was being a stupid git. The preview looked nice, but you can't really tell
with those.
Mark here seems to think it was nice enough.
– gruhn
OK – 600 optical and the same price?? That's unusual. Hmm.
Hi Gayle,
The new offering is the IIIc. i just got it last night and it kicks. I love
it and recommend it. I also had the IIcx and it never gave me any trouble…
Alex
Hi Alex – was it same price range as the IIcx? What are the "slick"
utilities? Did you get it bundled with anything nifty?
Hi Gayle,
Sure thing, the price is about $999.00 at CompUSA and it comes with a Copier
utility that will send your scan sirectly to the printer, and Corel PhotoPaint
5 with some really cool Filters not included with the one that comes with COREL
DRAW!
That's pretty much it, the actual scanner has a much nicer design than the
original, and it scans approx twice as fast with deeper pixel depth and a
greater range of grays.
Hope this helps…
Alex K.
Thanks very much Alec, I will check it out.
GAyle
As far as your color alignment problems with your Microtek ScanMaker II:
I have one and have occasionaly run into this problem. I have to go into
Photostyler, select the color channel that appears to be shifted, select the
whole channel (control + 'A'), and move the color layer pixel by pixel with my
keyboard's arrow buttons. A huge pain in the nether-regions! . . . and
remember! RGB color is additive, so move the opposite color channel (red =
green; green = red)!
Best of luck!
Sean
>> move the color layer pixel by pixel with my keyboard's arrow buttons<<
I have tried this solution, and it does help. Some. But since we haven't bought
yet, I'm trying to hold out for hardware which doesn't need this fix.
– gruhn
Hope I may be able to help here…we have the Microtek ScanMaker III, and I
don't believe this problem exists any more. It is also a 36 bit machine, and
absolutely brilliant. Reccommend it highly.