#Flyer Hard Drives
26 messages in this thread
Wayne,
I had a long talk yesterday, with a NewTek tech. BTW, your name is known around
the place.
It seems that the only drives that NewTek has actually check is the 2GB Quantim
Atlas drives. I believe this means checked using the new HQ5 setting.
I was told that the reason the command is hidden, is because NewTek doesn't
believe that any drives can handle this compression properly.
When I told the person that I was using two Seagate 9GB drives and that the
quality at HQ5 looked excellent, I was told that I was in the minority. That is
to say, most people using 9GB hard drives are having problems using the HQ5
compression.
The fact that I get a drop frame error after about 8 minutes of recording was
normal, so I was told. The hard drives start to recal after about 10 minutes of
use.
I was told that one person who had two identical 9GB drives, purchased at the
same time and with the same specs, found that only of the drives would record
properly.
But, now as I type this, I remember someone here, was it Gary, who was able to
record a non-stop clip to almost fill up the hard drive.
NewTek is working on fixing all of the bugs. Any of the enhancements will not
be seen for some time. Again, I am sumerizing the talk I had.
They are aware that some effects have problems and 4.1 will not be released
until all of the effects are fixed.
No set date on the 4.1 release. They want to make sure everything that is
suppose to work, works before it is released. So, I guess that is good news and
bad news.
I have not had any stuttering on my drives since I learned to leave out certain
effects. And as Frank has pointed out, you need to leave room on the hard
drives. Don't fill them up. The only time I start to notice problems is when
I'm running with only 9 minutes left on a 9GB drive.
But, we are not alone. My loaner AVID system has been showing some small
problems. Most of them are computer problems that just require running Norton's
Utilities to fix.
Fred
"NewTek is working on fixing all of the bugs. Any of the enhancements will not
be seen for some time."
Thanks for all the info, Fred, including this scarey statement.
I really wish NewTek would post a list of what they're going to fix in 4.1
and what they aren't. Doing that would make it a lot easier for people to
decide their own course of action.
Jerry
Fred:
My new issue of "NewMedia" arrived today and the cover article is "14 HARD
DISKS for digital video". Interesting article. I haven't read it thoroughly,
but frankly it strengthens my doubts about NewTek's blaming the drives for the
stuttering problem. (The D2 quality issue is totally separate in my mind – and
doesn't matter to me since D2 quality from Hi8 originals ain't about to happen.
<G>)
The article appears to be well worth reading, though, for more information on
the video issue in general.
Jerry
Jerry,
I think the big difference between the Flyer and all other NLE is that the
Flyer does effects in real time. No rendering. It also runs two hard drives
like an A and B roll tape system.
This puts more work on the drives.
I know the AVID needs every effect rendered. Even dissolves.
I'm going to be giving a talk on NLE this July and in preperation for that
talk, I am getting about 4 NLE system in here to play with. The only on hands
experience I have had so far besides the Flyer is the AVID.
So, I may be guessing when I say the Flyer is the only real time effect NLE.
I'll know better by the end of June.
However, from all of the demos that I saw at NAB, I don't recall seeing
anything that claimed to be able to handle effects in real time. Some said
almost real time.
Even the PC Flyer renders effects. So, NewTek may have tried to overdo some
Flyer features.
OTOH, my system no longer stutters. However, I know that I can't use certain
effects or if I do use them, they can't be used more than once in a project. If
I get a stutter, I just start removing the effects to find the one that made it
stutter. But, I haven't had to do that for some time.
My system is really working a lot better after 4.02 and now with 4.03 it is
almost acting like an editing system.
Fred
I hope to get 4.0.3. installed this weekend and maybe even 0.9 Flite Gear.
Fred, there are several strategies for improving throughput to drives
including buffering and disk arrays. If indeed the Flyer is putting greater
demands on the drives, then this is something NewTek should either have
addressed and provided for or simply spec'ed different drive setups.
If the drives NewTek specified weren't up to the task, then I think NewTek
bears the responsibility for insuring its customers who relied upon their
recommendations from loss.
My personal bugaboo still remains not being able to see the head and tail of
two clips for editing action. – sigh –
Jerry
Jerry,
A quick warning about Flight Gear and 4.03.
Some of the features that worked with Flight Gear in 4.02 don't work in 4.03
becuase Newtek has somehow broken their own Arexx scripts (or the calls those
scripts make to Flyer resources). One in particular is the direct loading of
graphiocs such as Jpeg images into Toaster framebuffers. This feature worked
just fine with 3.94 and 4.02, but not in 4.03. It;s not HArold's fault, since
he did nothing to change his software, so if you run across a bug with FG, you
might want to see if that process works with Flyer when called directly from
Flyer's own Arexx scripts before calling Harold about it. He's aware of a few
other things that got screwed up in 4.03, one of which is affecting his release
of the TimelLine/Insert Edit features he was working on.
Everything else I had a chance to test in FG with the above noted exception
worked ok. A couple of minor bugs that affected requesters has already been
addressed for the 1.0 release that ships this week from Atomic.
Enjoy!!
Frank
Thanks, Frank. Harold had already advised me about some of the problems in
running Flite Gear .09 with 4.0.3.
Jerry
Jerry,
I agree with you 100% about not being able to see end and beginning frames.
This was my concern when I first saw the Flyer demoed last year.
As far as the drives. This is just my gut feeling, but my instincts are usually
good. I don't think NewTek did their homework. The day they called me to
confirm that the system would not record over 11 minutes, (back in
94), I asked them if they were aware of this limitation when they started
designing the system and the kind of responce that I got lead me to believe
that they didn't even think of it.
It is the same with the Y/C connector in the back of the Flyer board. Just when
did they plan on making use of it. Until the system actually shipped, I
received conflicting remarks about this plug. Some said it would Y/C in some
said it would Y/C out, some said it didn't work, some said it did.
I think the Flyer came about as a thought, theory, whatever you want to call
it. Somebody at NewTek felt that it should work because they had the other
eliments in place. I don't think they researched what happens when you put that
much pressure on a hard drive.
It probably wouldn't have been so bad, if they had really tested the system
before offering it for sale. Then when the drives showed to be a problem, they
could have work it out. Tried different drives, or just waited until the
technology caught up. I'm sure some calls to drive manufacturers would have
speeded up the technology.
Let the manufacturers know that they had this great idea but would need a drive
that could meet this kind of demand. At that point in time, NewTek had a fine
reputation for a fine product. Any drive manufacturer would have been happy to
take on the challenge.
But, I really believe that this was not the issue.
Now, that Chuck is online, he may read this and tell me if I'm way off base or
not.
Yes, again I agree with you that NewTek has some responsibility to those of us
who bought the recommended drives. But, right now, I just completed recording
about 25 minutes on each of my 9GB drives at the HQ5 level. I'm now in the
process of cutting a 20 minute video together which is going to have a lot of
effects.
Most of the clips don't run more than a few minutes. I only had drop frame
errors a few times and all I had to do was re-start the recording process and
record over the clip that didn't record.
If the finished project plays back without a studder, or glitch, then I don't
have an argument with NewTek. I would rather the system was 100% perfect, but I
know that is not going to happen for a while.
I still have problems at times trying to make a simple video edit on my tape
system. Every so often I get a small glitch at the top of the screen on the
frame that the edit takes place. Do it a second time and it's fine.
Doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. Of course my recorder is about 5
years old and has never been taken in for service. It may need some minor
adjustments.
I am more frustrated in the fact that I can't do a split screen or a key effect
within the Flyer project. I have to do all my effects in the MX-50 and record
them as clips in the Flyer. I would like to do everything in the Flyer and free
up my other equipment.
I'd like to do audio mixing within the Flyer.
Those are the issues I'd like to see addressed.
Before I bought my Flyer, I was lead to believe that Studio 16 would work with
the Flyer. This information was told to me by a NewTek representative at one of
the trade shows where the Flyer was being shown.
Fred
"I don't think NewTek did their homework"
That's the understatement of the decade, Fred. <G>
Jerry
Fred,
I think Fast DPR renders in real time similar to the Flyer.
Michael
Fred,
Get ahold of a Medai 100 vresion 2, the new Fast or Mattrox hybrid systems.
Thier effects are pretty quick.
Now, as to the Flyer being real-time, there again is a healthy list of
qualifyers. The most apparent (and bothersome to work around) is the time it
takes to render a CG page into the preview buffer before it is useable. Its not
there immediatley for use, so you have to insure the proper duration of the
evend during which its loading is long enought to caver the tlaod time. This
is an example of where pre-rendering could help.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
The Media 100 is the other system I am trying to get. Good chance I may have
one in June.
Fred
Make sure it is a rev 2 or better. Another producer in town here is selling
all his linear (including Amiga/Toaste) stuff and going Media 100. When you
get ready to test, let me know and I'll EMail you his name and number in case
you want to compare notes.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Hi Wayne –
With the exception of key pages, CG pages that are framestores could be
converted to Flyer Stills and load much faster with much shorter durations.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
Hank,
Converting CG framestores to Flyer Stills is not always possible. Try a white
title on solid black. I get very obvious artifacts appearing in the black
background, even using HQ5.
Regards
Mark
Fred,
Avid dissolves are real time unless your layering effects.(non media suite
pro AVIDS)
Also please note my FAST NLE does all 400 efx in real time as well as
var forward and reverse play.
Karl,
I'm working with the Media Suite Pro on a Quadra 950. I am told that it is a
$25,000 system, so this is kind of in the same ball park price as the Flyer.
The FAST NLE. I hope to have a unit here next month. If I understand the system
correctly, it is a hybird system. It does both NLE and will also control tape
decks at the same time.
When you said it does "all 400 efx in real time" are you referring to the
effects that are done completely on the hard drives, or does this system mix
one scene from a deck an another from a drive to complete an effect?
How many hard drives are required on the FAST system?
Fred
Fred,
The FAST system uses 2 drives as 1 logical unit. It looks at the drives as
it would VCR's. You can mix digital video with analog tape, go analog to analog
or digital to digital. The effects are real time and editable. You can also
create alpha wipes (organic in Toaster talk). Ther are no color effects like
borders etc in the T4000. It supports SMPTE VITC, LTC, and the proprietary 8mm
time code. Controls virtually all machines and with the SC Box stripes LTC.
Supports 422, 232, lan & lanc controls. 8 tracks of audio etc,etc. I'm using
off the shelf barracudas (4.2gig) with 180kb/frame output. Make sure yours is
equipped with 16 megs video ram for an accurate test.
FYI I've used Cube, AVID, FAST, Media 100 and DVision. Most of my freelance
work lately is on AVID 1000, 8000 and Media 100. I also demo AVIDs for the
local supplier.
When you ge the unit the toughest part is the setup and machine controlthey
just give you too many things you can adjust. If you have any trouble with the
setup/use drop me a message.
Karl
Hi Karl –
PMFJI – but with that list of NLE experience, we would surely appreciate some
comments and pros and cons. Naturally, we'd like to know how the Flyer fairs
with the competition, but I'm sure, since we're all professionals, we would
like to know it all.
Of course, basically, how do the outputs from all systems appear? Since that is
the end product, it is a major concern for most. If we really decide to move or
add another NLE, which one do you think would be the best? Any input would be
appreciated.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
In a nutshell:
Media 100… Good looking picture cumbersome interface. The time line
functions ar buried like subdirectories with buttons. I prefer to see all my
options. Lacks some clip "sort" functions I use all the time. Crashes often.
The latest version added better resolution and cured some of the bugs.
Cube… I hate proprietary systems! The picture quality is waaay too soft for
me. Interface is difficult to get a handle on if your use to conventional "time
Line Systems" Does have a nice CG and nifty effects.
AVID 1000,4000 & 8000…. The power users system! Overpriced but well
supported. I hate rendering effects,motion effects other features outweigh the
downside. I'm not terribly impressed with the Media Suite Pro for windows or
mac.
DVision… Easiest to learn, great interface horrible image quality. The new
system will finally be on-line quality.
FAST… Superb image quality. Both linear and non-linear. EDL function
doesn't support audio in the time line (they are working on it) plus all the
stuff I listed in my last post. Poor CG but well supported 3rd party CG.
Rotoscopes, records animation.
Flyer… Where's the timeline? Audio needs work. Good image quality. But
there's that proprietary compression that bothers me. I think the Windows
version was a smart move.
Karl,
Boy, with access to all those systems I wold be tempted to create a suite of
test edit session including tricky live video and segments of test signals just
to see how the different systems compared.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Hi Fred –
I did see other realtime DVE NLE systems at NAB. One in particular, TurboCube,
was very impressive. We had a small expo here last week and I'm hoping to get
some feedback since the Cube was there. There is also a Cube user on the
DTVForum and I've asked him for some pros and cons.
I also believe the Fast system, hooked to the Alladin, will do realtime DVE's
also.
Hank
Videology, Inc Where you always get P.O.M.P. and
Service under all circumstances
Hank,
One area the turboCube had problems, IMHO, was aliasing. A hard edge in a high
contrast area that was not perfectly horizontal or vertical was noticeably
stairstepped. And there effects showed the same aliasing, at leas on the big
show monitors. Other than that, the images looked real nice.
wmc – via Autopilot!
>>BTW, your name is known around the place.
I should send them a bunch of pictures of me to put on their dart boards.
Regarding the HQ5, I have played back the stuff I recorded at HQ 5 several
times today, even after termintating, powering down, and restarting. with the
previous board that would have been impossible. I did only get 11 1/2 minutes
in space that was reported as 15 mins, but there were two other projects on the
disk and fragmentation may have beena problem. I'm too skittish to try reorg
just yet.
On the hopeful side, consider this: NewTek had always maintained that you have
to have an infinite window TBC to run tape to a Toaster. I have two JVC 622s as
source decks. One feeds the Toaster via a DPS 230 (inifinite window) and the
other via the optional TBC cards of the 622, which are only full feild. There
are also some people operating Toaster quite successfully on 32 line TBCs. So,
it is possible that NewTek has realized that the VTASC design was so close to
the limits of the "certified" drives for HQ5 that they would not certify them
any longer, and claimed they wouldn't work to avoid having to service the
marginal set-ups that pushed the drives to the point of stuttering. But, with
this new board (and running with the cover off my machine) HQ 5 doesn't seem to
be much of a problem, at least on the one tape I tried on it. (Remember, VTASC
is content dependent. A real killer scene like guys in Ninja costumes carrying
torches past well lit bookcases fille with veryu colorful and varied books
would probably make your drives and mine barf all over VTASC.) However, I'm
also sure it won't do much better than HQ5 either after hearing the sustained
throughput requirements of VTASC for lossless D2.
The unfortunate part of all this is that NewTek ever mentioned D2 quality to
begin with. The need to pass the blame on to the hard drive makers for
NewTek's desing estimate miscalculations on the resources required to support
VTASC makes them look silly. The didn't learn from Nixon and Watergate – oh
well.
BTW, I've found that some flashing can be controlled with lowering the luma
levels of the video where it occurs. It makes me suspicious that some of the
stuttering/flashing that some people are seeing is not due to video that is too
"hot". Contrary to what a lot of people believe, the Toaster (and LW) will
allow video too hot for boradcast to pass through. But when levels get over
100 IRE, some of the transitions including key pages from the CG produce very
noticeable flashing, tearing and/or flag edit problems.
wmc – via Autopilot!
We have also found that careful tbc adjustments can make a huge difference in
the operation of almost any NLE. While beta testing others we were tweeking the
tbc almost as much as editing. Have not has much trouble with the flyer.
Nightscape
Sharon,
What TBC parameters are you referring to?
Regards,
Gary