#AG 1960-1970 Hi8 or SVHS
23 messages in this thread
So many questions but here is just 2.
1. OK whats the difference between the 1970 and 1960 deck by
Panasonic.
2. If you were looking for gear would you go Hi8 or SVHS.
Thanks I know this has probably been asked a thousand times but
I need some input to make some buying descisions.
Thanks Bob.
Hi Bob.
Sorry, I can't say anything on the Panansonic units.
As for which format to use, I think you're going to get a lot of
responses on this one.
I shoot and edit with Hi-8. The reason I chose it was because its
audio capabilities exceed that of S-VHS. I LOVE good sound, and found that
S-VHS's (or VHS's for that matter) linear audio tracks just didn't cut it. In
case you didn't know, S-VHS inserts audio on linear audio tracks: roughly
50 to 60dB signal to noise, with a freq. response of roughly 80Hz-10kHz.
Comparable to an audio cassette. Hi-8 inserts audio on PCM digital audio
tracks:
80dB+ signal to noise, freq. response of 20Hz-15kHz. Close to (but not quite)
CD quality. However, S-VHS has video insert capabilities as well, which
IMHO gives it the upper hand over HI-8. Once you start using video insert,
you can't live without it.
Some people are going to tell you that Hi-8 has to many dropouts and is
not suitable for editing. S-VHS isn't exactly drop out proof either. (I
wonder what kind of response this is going to get? VBG) Use good tape stock,
either Sony HMPX series or Fuji M221E series, keep your equipment clean and
maintained, and you will get Hi-8 footage as good as S-VHS.
CK
"S-VHS isn't exactly drop out proof either. (I wonder what kind of response
this is going to get? VBG)"
I use professional grade Fuji and Sony tapes with both Hi8 and SVHS. They both
seem to have about the same rate of dropouts (actually, from all the "use S-VHS
to avoid dropouts" talk, I was disappointed with S-VHS). I would actually
contend that Hi8 has less dropouts (SVHS dropouts have seriously set back my
work on at least 2 occasions, while this hasn't happened yet with Hi8 even
thought I use it much more often).
Hi8 is terrific, but you should know what to look out for: Use high quality
tape, be wary of Evaporated Metal tape, and don't expect to record computer
animations one frame at a time for hours on end and have the tape survive (its
iffy with SVHS and its dumb with Hi8). Very easy guidelines which restrict
hardly anyone.
-Chris
CNR Media Services
Thanks
I am takeing this all in.
And from all this great information I am starting to see some
light as too the Pros and cons of this buying choice..
Mostly no one has a problems with the picture quality
just the physical tape and how it holds up.
Do you do much editing with Hi8?
Will it hold up during a normal edit session??
Or would I be wise to take a generation lose and
move to SVHS for editing ??
Thanks Bob.
"Do you do much editing with Hi8? Will it hold up during a normal edit
session?? Or would I be wise to take a generation lose and move to SVHS for
editing ??"
Very good questions.
Yes, I do a lot of editing with Hi8 and I'm as confident about it's durability
as I am with SVHS for what I consider 'normal' editing. I put about the same
amount of wear on my tapes as most pros would, though I may do it differently.
Most pros rely on match-frame edits, which are start-stop intensive, but edit
to a single SVHS or Hi8 master and make final copies from the master. I,
however, have traded off match-frame edits for multiple edit sessions using my
camcorder originals: I have the computer sync the 2 sources and keep them
rolling for the length of the production (or the scene), which the computer
triggering switcher transitions at certain timecode points. (I do mostly event
videography, and corporate from time to time.) So the edit session is mostly
like a playback, but I do not edit to a master… I edit directly to customer
copies to preserve quality, so the customer gets a product with one less tape
generation than the average editor provides.
I believe that the single worst thing you can do to a video signal (besides
shooting in low light) is to put that signal on a tape: Put the signal onto
tape as few times as possible.
I do one other thing which helps the tapes. I believe that tape damage is most
often caused from excessive shuttling while trying to log/alter edit decisions
(IOW, before even a single customer copy has been made). So instead, I copy my
sources to a VHS "preview" tape, with one source nested as a smaller PIP image
and the larger image displaying the camera's timecode readout (the tapes have
to already be synced). Then I can shuttle the preview tape in any old VHS VCR
to my hearts content and not have to worry about tape or deck wear.
-Chris
CNR Media Services
> copy my sources to a VHS "preview" tape, with one source nested as a
> smaller PIP image and the larger image displaying the camera's timecode
> readout (the tapes have to already be synced)
I understand in general what you are doing but not the particular example
you cite. Could you say that another way perhaps? I'm using Hi8 to Hi8 (so
I can do PCM audio dubing) … is there some way to make the EDL
(VideoDirector event list) using a copy then go back to the originals for
the final assembly edit? Using VISCA and RCTC decks.
Thanks.
-jts
John, you can work with a copy to do the editing, then go back to the original
to do the final edit with the system you have. But you cannot do it with VD. My
advice, throw away VD and get EZV2. It is far more powerful than VD and is only
about $250.
Yes, I'd like to give EzV2 a spin … but I have version VD 1.5 that accepts
the Magni glock card software and Curtain Call as 'guests' so that
transitions and multimedia effects can be programed right in the tape
assembly. That's too much stuff for me to ignore.
Thanks.
-jts
Mmmmm. Sounds interesting. Tell me more about your setup. What hardware and
software are you running and what can this Magni card do. Also what did this
setup cost you?
$499. This was a close out just prior to GVP going out of business. But
the bundle they put together is real. Transitions (wipe, fade and dissolve
between graphics and video), title (anything from Windows or PrimeTime DOS
CG, very capable), effects (2D animation mixed with video) and audio (the
usual multimedia mix). The Magni card has all the bells and whistles. Down
side is that when it outputs to NTSC the computer RBG output drops to the
same frequency, 15.7kHz. Most monitors won't sync this low … older ones
did like the NEC 3D, II and Sony 1302. These can be found used. That's
what I'm doing now. Rather inexpensive but a hassle. You can get by w/o
one since the output is on the NTSC monitor anyway.
Last I knew a few weeks ago was that Electronic Mailbox had about 10 or so
left in stock.
-jts
Now I remember looking at the GVP card before. What I did not like about it was
that it only had composite out. The nest higher card. the one with S-video out
was too expensive.
I did not realize that they went out of business.
Do you have the G-Lock Personal Suite Plus or the CG Suite Pro? Is this card
the same as the Magni? I understand that the Magni Pro card is $1500. If so I
would like to buy one asap.
John, I have the VD 1.5 for the Mac. Will the Magna card work on the Mac also?
Larry McCoy
Vintage Video
I guess they could tell you if they have a Mac version. Magni is
503-626-8400. If the receptionist is not sure who to put you too ask for
Fred Cooper.
-jts
"I can do PCM audio dubing) … is there some way to make the EDL
(VideoDirector event list) using a copy then go back to the originals for the
final assembly edit? Using VISCA and RCTC decks."
Yeah… find a key frame (a photo flash, for instance) and note the offset in
MM:SS:FF between the original and the copy. Then make your EDL with the copy,
and for your final copy add/subtract the offset to the times in your EDL.
-Chris
CNR Media Services
Gads, that would be a lot of work to make the changes in a lenghty EDL. I
do see what you're suggesting.
Thanks.
-jts
"Gads, that would be a lot of work to make the changes in a lenghty EDL. I do
see what you're suggesting."
Not if you wrote an ARexx script or something to make the conversion
automatic.
-Chris
CNR Media Services
<<"S-VHS isn't exactly drop out proof either. (I wonder what kind of response
this is going to get? VBG)" >>
Of course your right, but your message goes on and tells how the DO rate is
about equal?!
I wonder… What SVHS equipment are you using?
I use a JVC EditDesk and older AG 450 CamCorders, and ALWAYS have less dropouts
on the SVHS side than with my Hi8 Stuff.(Digital A1)
Zeddock Miller
"I wonder… What SVHS equipment are you using?"
I use a variety of SVHS.. AG-450, 1960, 1970 and a JVC 6900.
I believe the Canon A1 has the mini head-drum in its transport, which
Sony has reported as being the cause of a number of problems,
including accelerated head and tape wear (they have eliminated the
mini drum in current products). My TR700s have full-size drums.
Thanks for all the good stuff. I am looking to upgrade and really
havent had the depth of experience to make a good judgement on this.
I have done a ton of reading all of which seems to be contradictory.
I currently have a Hi8 Ricoh 88H camera which is based of the same
body as the Sony TR91/101 (I dont remember). I got the Ricoh over the
Sony because it has glass lenses. Now I am looking to make a leap
for a new, hopefully better, camera.
I want to ask you a general question. Do you think the color is too
harsh in Hi8?? I have seen shots done with a AG455 ( I imagine
comperable to my level of Hi8 camera) and the color seemed warmer.
Maybe I am wrong but I am but an infant in this buisness.
Hi Bob.
Sorry. I didn't mean to mail that message. Thanks for telling me.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'harsh colors'. Do you mean the colors
look over saturated, or the overall image quality looks harsh or too
crisp? I'm going to assume you mean the colors look over saturated.
To be real honest, I haven't had the opertunity to do a side by side
comparison of Hi8 and S-VHS to see which one had warm or harsh
colors. I've only worked with S-VHS once. I think the quality of the
colors has more to do with the CCD's rather than the format itself.
Also, different brands of cameras have different color
characteristics. It is possible that the footage from the AG455 was
warmer than the footage from your camera. It's also possible that the
monitor you viewed the 455 footage on, made the colors appear warmer.
I personally do not think the colors in Hi-8 are to harsh, a little
noisy though. Hope this helps!
Thanks again..
>> I'm going to assume you mean the colors look over saturated.
Yep..
>>It's also possible that the monitor you viewed the 455 footage on, made the
>>colors appear warmer.
This could be it could also be the TBC setup for the day..
>>a little noisy though.
I've noticed this too. I just thought it was my camera.
This concerns me. Is this the tape or the camera.
Im thinking or regearing and getting the Sony VX3 three chip. I can
find no 3 chip in SVHS in this price range otherwise I would consider
it. I cannot afford what the big boys use EVW-300 or the JVC line of
3 chip SVHS.
But before I leap I will look and listen a little more.
Bob.
"Im thinking or regearing and getting the Sony VX3 three chip. I can find no 3
chip in SVHS in this price range otherwise I would consider it."
Panasonic has the AG-3 (3chip SVHS-C), but from side-by-side
comparisons, it's image is quite inferior to the Sony VX-3.