#A4000
36 messages in this thread
Don,
Commodore would want to produce an '030 machine because it would be
lower priced than a A4000/040 and have slots to plug in other cards.
Besides, it would provide an upgrade path for a future '040 or above.
Rumor has it one of the next machines to be released will be a '030 based
4000, which seems to explain why current A3000s are going so cheaply.
"In case of doubt, make it sound convincing" ***Sensor***
Victor,
I don't believe a '030 based 4000 would be that much cheaper than
an '040 based machine. Consider the difference would be the OEM price of
the CPU…not a big deal, and consider that Commodore would have to add the
cost of designing the '030 card and bringing it to market which would make
the CPU cost difference even smaller.
Don
Don,
You may have a point. I would just like to see an AGA computer of the
same price range as my 3 year old A2000 when new, with slots and able to
use my existing cards. I would prefer a '030, for compatability sake. I
have heard problems with '040 compatability, especially with games.
"In case of doubt, make it sound convincing" ***Sensor***
Victor,
I agree with you that C= needs a mid-line AGA machine, something between
the A1200 and the A4000. But I think the last thing they should do is let
their choice of MPU for this machine be influenced by sloppy games
programming. If they can afford to put an '040 in this mid-line machine,
I sure hope they do so.
-Dave (via AutoPilot)
Victor,
If you want to play games…get an A1200.
I'm a firm believer in not buying the latest and greatest unless
it's what you really need. I don't believe in keeping up with the Jones.
With that in mind, I figure that the folks moving up to an A4000 need all
the power it offers, else they'd get a 1200.
I do believe it's possible for Commodore to come out with an '030
based AGA machine…but I would be quite surprised if it were in the A4000
configuration. I'd imagine it'd be in the 1200 configuration…with perhaps
one or two slots. One for a video board, perhaps a second for expansion.
That is pure guess on my part. I have no idea what Commodore's
plans are.
Don
Don,
The one thing that attracted me to an Amiga in the first place was its
flexibility. If I wanted to play games, than I could. If I want to word
process for a particular work project I could. I wasn't tied to a
different platform for a task.
If I wanted a A1200 for strictly games, I would buy it! But, I too have a
considerable investment in boards, drives and modems I would like to use
in a NEW machine without fear of incompatability. My games are an
important source of entertainment and a considerable investment as well.
Gee, I am sorry I don't seem to fit your idea of the 'serious user' and
not worthy of advanced technology. But when my A2000 struggles with
printing a 20 page script of outline fonts on my laser, I wish for more
power.
I like many other people cannot afford a A4000. At least not in the near
term. I would love to get one, but I cannot. A A4000/030 can provide
some of that power, within a decent price range now plus a way to upgrade
with a '040+ board in the future. And I get to keep what I have now.
It seem simple to me. And based on the responses I have seen here, more
than one seems to agree. I bet you dollars to dimes, Commodore will too.
"In case of doubt, make it sound convincing" ***Sensor***
I agree totally! Besides there's no way to get a slot or to inside a 1200
class machine (I'm talking Zorro 3 slot, and a midlevel Amiga HAS to have
Z3…) Besides it's just semantics whether it'll be a 4000/030, or a
2400, or whatever, it'll still be pretty much the same as a 4000 box.
They designed the 4000 box to use different CPU's, and they're not going
to throw away good development money and design yet another box when they
don't need to (yet).
The 1200 is perfect for me, because I had no investment in cards that
would go in a bigger machine (I have 2 A500's also, and unlike a lot of
people, don't expect A500 hacks to go into a new machine…
The A1200 really has 2 expansion slots 1 32 bit, and 1 PCMCIA, which I've
learned, is a pretty powerful even if it only 16 bit, and that'll be
enough for me for awhile. But I would definitely thought about spending
$!500 bucks on an 030 AGA machine with slots, if there was one availble…
I can't justify spending enough for the A4000 right now.
Bob Comer
The difference in OEM price of the CPU is QUITE significant. Hundreds of
dollars. Last year it was over $500 between a 25 MHz 030 and 25MHz 040,
although it may be less now.
A $400 increase in price of the processor translates to $1000 more on the
retail price of the computer.
Denny,
Think about it:
Gee…we could put an '030 in the machine and cut our costs by
$500!
Gosh…that means we could cut the retail price by $1,000!
Neat…we'd be making $500 LESS on each machine…Cool.
Yes, there are margins built in, but there is also bottom line
profits. And it doesn't make sense to cut costs by $500 and prices by
$1000. Sure, if you did that…you'd hope to make total dollars up by
increases in volumn. But the reality is we're talking a relatively low
volumn machine anyway…so I doubt it'd make it up.
I certainly could be wrong though.
What I think you will see is the price of hte '040 drop
significantly over the next 6 months or so. And if it does…the whole
purpose of going to an '030 based machine becomes moot…and you've
(Commodore that is) just wasted a lot of money coming up with an '030 based
machine because it'll have a very short lifetime (in my opinion of course).
Don
Original reply deleted. Just forget it.
But if a costs $400 in parts to make, you generally retail it for $1000 or
more. So a $400-500 decrease in parts cost can make a $1000 difference in
retail. Basic American business economics.
As for whether there's a demand for a slot machine in the $1500 range, I
think CIS has a BAD case of power user syndrome.
Denny,
I agree with you a 100%. The Power User syndrome is indeed rampant here.
Commodore needs a machine in the $1500 range. It will *not* be the
A4000/040. Not until they are ready to dump them.
Speaking of dumping, everytime Commodore comes up with something that a
dealer can sell they dump their inventory to the mail order folks. They
did this with the A3000 deal, and now the A600. Dealer cost on the A600
RoboCop package from Commodore is *higher* than if I buy them from Tennex.
Of course, since I am a direct dealer I am not allowed to buy them from
Tennex. Ergo, the A600 is dead.
The biggest problem with the A600 is the lack of anyone knowing what it
could do for only $399. I realize that many of you believe the A600
should be dead, however I think that each Amiga sold builds a larger user
base that hopefully will buy some software, peripherals and ultimately
will upgrade to a bigger Amiga in the future. Never in the history of the
Amiga has a dealer had a product at that price range that was as nicely
packaged as the A600 is.
-mark=
The A600 makes me sick….The name Amiga should not be on it.
I do have to say I am impressed with the A1200….I never like ANY computer
on the A500 type platform before this. The thing is built like a little
brick…..doesn't have the 'flimsier' feel that alot of A500's had.
They have made the mistake of IDE in the machine as with the 4000. But at
least it's nice to see you can easily put a harddrive INSIDE the little
bugger.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!
Denny,
Here is my 2 cents. I think most of us agree about a lower-cost A4000
box. The main questions are which processor and which model name? I think
Commodore has alot of flexibility here as these points don't matter too
much (what with the processor module).
I think an A4000/020 at 14MHz is likely. This maintains the relationship
with the A500 that the A2000 had, and they could sell this basic, full
32-bit expandable AGA machine for pratically _peanuts_. If they can sell
the A4000/020 for $1300 they could make a killing and still not threaten
the A1200 price bracket. This old relationship applied to the A4000/A1200
looks even better when you consider that the processor module makes
upgrading the CPU trivial compared to the A2000.
There is a chance they will call it something like the A2200, but I don't
think so. Identifying an A4000 box too closely with the A2000 would not be
good when the two are so physically different. Plus many people think of
the A2000 as the 'old' and the A4000 the 'new', identifying with the A4000
as "the" new AGA machine even with the advent of the A1200.
-Chris
Christopher,
I don't think the name matters at all. I'm just concerned about them
filling the performance gap.
I'm amazed at the elitism I've seen from some folks in this thread. I wish
$2700 was an easy drop in the bucket for ME.
Denny,
I certainly don't hope you believe I'm an elitest. I don't have a
4000, or even a 3000. What I've got is one of the original 2000's…that
over the years I've built up into a 2500/20. I also don't have $2700 to
drop on anything, let alone a home computer.
Don
Chris,
While I don't think we'll see an 020-based A4000, your note _does_ remind
me of something that the people who summarily dismiss Commodore
considering an A4000 with a <040 processor should take a look at…
There's a jumper on the A4000's motherboard that you need to change if you
put an 020 card in the machine instead of an 040. So OBVIOUSLY the idea
has come up.
I think an '030 4000 box machine would be a great idea. Especially if it
could be sold at retail at the price point CBM was closing out A3000s —
$1500. I think there's a need for machines at the at the $500, $1500,
$2500, and $3500 price points.
I don't like the idea of the A600. It's _too_ lowend.
-sja
Steve,
But it's so inexpensive that it's brought a number of young,
financially-tight Amigans into the fold. And anything that can expand the
software base is good. The entertainment software industry for the Amiga
in the U.S. has almost spontaneously disappeared. A million A600s wouldn't
do much for the ImageMaster/24-bit/etc. crowd, but it might bring back the
low-end software support that's starting to disappear.
Denny,
Will a low-end ECS machine bring the entertaiment software industry back?
That's probably debatable. Now (using your hypothetical figure) if a
million A1200s were sold that _would_ get the entertainment software
industry's attention. They'd have low-end base of (relatively) fast
machines with lots of colors to work with. They could port VGA games over
more easily than having to redo (downgrade) the graphics to support ECS.
Denny,
I doubt that a million A600's would attract the mainstream
entertainment software publishers. The machine is too underpowered to
handle the conversion of today's "major" games and still provide an
acceptible level of performance. This implies a major expense (rewrite)
to fit a game to the machine.
On top of that, I suspect that the folks who are attracted to the A600
are attracted to it because of the low cost. How much do you think these
folks will be willing to spend on software? I don't see the A600 as a ral
factor, at least to the mainstream industry.
– BobR
Denny,
I see no particular reason that the 1200 can't get down in price where the
a600 is presently – and I can see a LOT of reasons why it *should*. The
biggest is that an early price drop would amek CBM a market leader –
finally, again.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
It is the 'margin' thing that keeps them from putting the A1200 at $399.
It would be wonderful if they would do it–and I agree, they could.
However, knowing the sales people at Commodore Business Machines, they
won't.
If a $399 A1200 appeared they could kill the A600. 🙂
-mark=
Steve,
I think there is a need for something as lowend as the 600. All of those
ageing but beloved C64 machines are going to be replaced. Lots of people
cannot afford more than the price of a 600, or don't think a computer is
worth more than that to *them*. If the 600 could sell wildly, those same
people would begin to think of moving up, just as tht C64 owners have
added disk drives, memory expansions, etc. Except that they would
probably go from the 600 to the 1200, and then they'd be where you want
them.
—Betty
Denny,
One more thing to consider. If Commodore were going to come out
with an '030 based 4000…one would guess it'd have come out first. A step
up from the 3000 (vis a vie the AGA chipset) and with easy expansion to an
'040 via the processor board.
An '040 based 4000 would then have been either an option…or a
future upgrade the customer could have taken if they wished.
At least that's the way that would have made the most sense to me
if I were working on such a machine.
Don
The A4000 has no CPU on board…..it's "FAST SLOT" allows easy cpu module
replacment.
Also one would think C= would use a 030 CPU in the A1200 instead of a cheap
EC 020…but they did.
If C= was smart (this is a question in itself) they would sell base A4000's
and 030, 040, and 060 CPU modules seperatly.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!
Dave,
I believe I said "CPU board" not "CPU on board"…but I'll go back
and check because that's what I intended to say.
Don
Dave,
yes…that is what I said, "…easy expansion to the '040 via the
processor board"
I consider "processor board" equivalent to "cpu module"…the idea
being plug and play (so to speak).
Don
Don,
I usually agree with most everything you say here in the forums, and
greatly admire your Amiga wisdom, but believe you are really off base with
the 030 AGA machine. It make sense for a number of reasons, the 1200 is a
great machine but it is rather limited: 10 megs of ram,(who would have
believed that would be an issue!) no MMU, no video slot (or any other slot
besides the belly slot) ect. You say: if you need all that buy the 4000,
well I don't have $2700.00 right now but I do have $1500-$2000 that I
would pay for an AGA 030, 2-4 megs ram, 4 or 5 slots, 80 meg hd, that may
not fit my future needs, but that I could upgrade as I could afford it.
My system now is the result of gradually upgrading it as I could. I could
never have afforded it otherwise. The 1200 puts a wall up as far
expandability and the 4000 is out of my pocket book. Even if the 030 is
4-6 hundred dollars cheaper it gives me a choice and an option.
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
Steve,
In a later message in the thread I stated what kind of '030 based
machine I though Commodore should come out with. Similar to the 1200, but
with a couple of slots. A couple of messages back…I see you think the
same thing…so we're apparently on the same wavelength.
My opinion is that it wouldn't be wise to come out with a 4000
based on the '030…but a mid-level machine with AGA and an '030 does make
some sense to me.
Don
Don,
It is clear you have not been on the selling side of an Amiga dealership.
People expect machines in the $1500 price range to look like a computer.
It has to be a box, it has to have slots and a hard disk.
The A1200-like machine with an 030 would not sell as it would not be
significantly different in most customers eyes than the A1200. No, the
best move would be A4000 with an 030 board.
Remember, you can't apply logic and reason to the way people buy things.
For most, marketing is everything. Substance means little. If you don't
agree, explain to me why the 386SX sells?
-mark=
Mark,
You're right…I don't sell computers. I buy them. Or perhaps,
more correctly…I'd like to buy them for myself.
I buy 50 to 100 computers a year at work. We buy computers for the
job they're tasked to do, not for how pretty they are. Yes, we look at
reasonable uses in the future…but that's generally not an
issue….they're generally used for word processing, terminal emulation and
perhaps a small database or spreadsheet.
Don
Don,
Why would it have to come out first? By that logic, the A1200 would have
had to come out before the A4000.
You could upgrade the 030 A4000 to an 040 A4000. Buy Commodore's A3640
board.
Anyway, this is a waste of time. God only knows what Commodore will ever
release. You certainly can't use logic to predict it–otherwise the A1200
would have a clock, an AmigaDOS manual, a socket for the 881 in that empty
spot on the motherboard, and scalable fonts on the AmigaFonts disk.
Sheesh.
and speech.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I don't think so Don, here is why. The 040 board in the A4000 is the
exact same board that was created for the A3000T. This being the case,
they *had* the 040 board and did not have an up-to-date 030 board.
-mark=
OEM cost of the chip is aleast $300 in HIGH quantity.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers – via Whap!
Dave,
Ok…$300. And thus even if Motorola gave away the '030…that
cuts your earlier estimate of $400 difference in the chip price down to
$300.
Don