#Watcom Debug/IPAS3 Dev.
20 messages in this thread
I would like to use the Watcom debugger Video in the development of Autodesk
IPAS3 external processes. The Watcom manual discusses use of the debugger with
ADS and ADI, but not IPAS development.
All suggestions are appreciated, and I thank you in advance.
Steve Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
voice: 813-977-8414
CIS: 70732,2546
internet: pidgeon@gate.net
Stephen,
<< I would like to use the Watcom debugger Video in the development of Autodesk
IPAS3 external processes. The Watcom manual discusses use of the debugger with
ADS and ADI, but not IPAS development. >>
I don't have a Watcom programming environment. I just reviewed the IPAS3
Readme and noted that there are no debugging insights in there except for a
debug version of the Watcom lib. Maybe one of the other IPAS3 developers can
lend some insights into Watcom debugging and IPAS3.
I found an interesting statement on pg 65 of the Watcom Video Manual regarding
how debugging an ADS app under ACAD requires a ADS.TRP trap file and the
ACAD.ADS file of ADS apps that will be loaded by ACAD. Something similar would
be needed for IPAS.
However, the ADS.TRP will automatically load ACAD so you can't just use it for
3DS. :-(..
Have you contacted Watcom for any additional help?
jonas[adesk]
Yes, Jonas, we have posted on 'go watcom' and internet 'tech@watcom.on.ca' I
thank you for your rapid response. I do hope that a watcom IPAS developer will
note this posting and reply with some information.
Thanks in Advance to any who may have an insight.
Steve Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
Voice: 813-977-8414
CIS: 70732,2546
internet: pidgeon@gate.net
Jonas,
I've spoken with Watcom Technical Support. Dan issued incident #30034 with
regards to my inquiry. He states that that previous ADS and ADI debugger tools
may have been a collaboration, but are the ultimate repsonsibility of Autodesk.
I understand via the grapevine that the majority of IPAS development is being
done on Metaware. I've heard that Yost Group is Metaware, as well as
Digimation. I don't know about Pyros or Schrieber. I've avoided Metaware
since Watcom doesn't require the PharLap Dev. kit be purchased. But this
debugger issue is significant.
If you wish to contact Watcom Technical Support to persue this issue, my
contact is Dan, he can be contacted at 519-884-0702 (voice), 519-747-4971
(fax), tech@watcom.on.ca (internet), or go watcom (CIS)
Please advise:
Does Autodesk/Yost feel the commitment to Watcom to warrant collaboration with
them on setting the traps and modifications to enable Video in IPAS debugging?
If not, are there debugging capabilities with Metaware to support IPAS
debugging?
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Stephen,
<< I understand via the grapevine that the majority of IPAS development is
being done on Metaware. I've heard that Yost Group is Metaware, as well as
Digimation. I don't know about Pyros or Schrieber. >>
Gus at Pyros uses Metaware and Digimation's use is unknown to me.
<< I've avoided Metaware since Watcom doesn't require the PharLap Dev. kit be
purchased. But this debugger issue is significant. >>
Yes you are right. Using a debugger is so very important with a graphics
program.
<< Does Autodesk/Yost feel the commitment to Watcom to warrant collaboration
with them on setting the traps and modifications to enable Video in IPAS
debugging? >>
Looking at the resources here at Adesk, I don't see any work being done in this
area now or anytime soon.
<< are there debugging capabilities with Metaware to support IPAS debugging? >>
Yes.. Metaware has a debugger called mdb and Pharlap ships with one called
sb386.
I use both in a dual screen environment. I started liking Pharlap's debugger
but was converted to Metaware's debugger which allowed me to walk a pointer
chain and displayed integers as integers in the debugger. The readme file that
ships with IPAS3 covers the steps necessary for each debugger.
jonas[adesk]
Thanx again for your quick response.
If possible I would like to leave a message posted to solicate input from
others. I would prefer to find IPAS debugging tools for Watcom, before
converting to Metaware. The costs of such a migration are significant.
I noticed that all the forums became empty today, and my postings have a life
expectancy of only a few hours. Why don't my message remain posted long
enough for someone else to respond?
Steve Pidgeon
Stephen,
<< Why don't my message remain posted long enough for someone else to
respond?>>
They do. However, everytime that *you* log in to read a message and then read a
message, the next time that you log in, you'll only see new unread messages.
jonas[adesk]
Oh. <blush> 🙂
In order to use Video, you will need a special file called "Traps". They have
to provide this file for the environment you need to debug. Watcom has not
developed a "Trap" file for IPAS and has no plans on doing so. They will not
give away the specs on how to write my own "Trap". This is the main reason I do
not use Watcom and do not recommend it for IPAS development.
Gus,
Yes, I agree. It appears that those who want debugging have found it easier to
spend the money on Metaware, than try to persuade Autodesk/Watcom to
collaborate on such an effort. Neither expresses any interest.
Now, what do I do with 2 licensed Watcom C/C++ 9.5 compilers? 🙂 <evil grin>
Thanks for your thoughts.
Steve Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
>> Now, what do I do with 2 licensed Watcom C/C++ 9.5 compilers? 🙂
>> <evil grin>
He, he… Wrap'em back and send it over to Waterloo!
I actually use Watcom almost daily. That's what I use to write every little
utility I need (instead of batch files). The fact you can freely distribute
the resulting binaries made all the difference (as opposed to pay $2g for
PharLap DOSEx). I only use Metaware for Adesk stuff (IPAS'es and ADI's).
Gus,
<< (as opposed to pay $2g for PharLap DOSEx).>>
Please explain. I thought the $1k for Metaware 3.1 and PharLap SDK bundle was
going to be the extend of my non re-occurring cost of migration. I don't want
to make any more decisions that haven't been properly researched.
And thanks for your input.
It's greatly appreciated!
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Stephen,
<< $1K vs $2g … >>
Metaware used to list for ~1K and Phar Lap used to list for ~1K. So it used to
cost ~2K to get in. However, both of these have been reduced but I don't think
that the 2 products together are currently ~1K.
jonas[adesk]
Jonas,
Thank you. I've been talking with Metaware and they have a bundle for $995
which includes Metaware High C/C++ and PharLap SDK. One may request version
3.1 and they will provide the current version and the 3.1 version to the buyer.
I continue to attempt to solve the debugging issue with Watcom at this time.
I certainly understand the resources and priorities issues that have created
the situation where Watcom is a supported compiler but the Traps haven't been
developed. We are investigating many avenues, and understand your position.
Watcom is of the opinion that a .TRP file will be necessary for each type of
IPAS, this magnifies the task considerably. They estimate that each .TRP would
be in the range of 1K lines of code, and decribe the task of writing .TRPs as
unpleasant at best.
Christopher Allis, Manager, Multimedia Developer Relations, has responded by
email to this thread and references how "A large portion of our PR effort this
SIGGRAPH (and from now on) are geared towards the IPAS Plug-ins developed by
our Registered Multimedia Developers."
My plea to Chris and to all is:
If you want to encourage IPAS development, make it a possible for a developer
to tool up at lower stakes. Watcom is a much lower buy in than
Metaware/PharLap and we are low stakes players at this time….keep us in the
game…continue to provide the support for Watcom that is appropriate to the
support given Metaware. Specifically, support us as best you possibly can to
get at least a .TRP for KXP only so we can efficiently complete our code
before SIGGRAPH94.
We will gratefully appreciate any level of assistance that is available within
your organization to meet our goal. We are negotiating with WATCOM to acquire
the Debugger Trap SDK at this time. We are committed to this and seek your
support.
Sincerely,
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
CIS 70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Stephen,
<< My plea to Chris and to all is:
If you want to encourage IPAS development, make it a possible for a developer
to tool up at lower stakes. .. >>
Chris has definately heard you and is collecting all of the data for further
analysis by Adesk developers and the Developer Relations department.
Thanks..
Thank you Jonas….
You've heard us, and are looking at the issue. That's all I can ask.
Your attention to this, as well as Gus, Christopher, and all is very
appreciated.
I will await Adesks decision with optimism.
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
CIS: 70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Here I go again… Metaware version 3.1 is ok when it works. I mean, it has
some bugs that depending on the complexity of your source ".C" file, it may
cause a page fault and abort. Just add a dummy function somewhere and it will
go. Version 3.11 fixed that problem but created a couple of other problems. The
major one is that it may, depending again on the complexity of your code, mess
up your stack. The code it generates for a specific function will pop more than
it should on the way back. Version 3.21@5 fixes all that and so far I have been
able to do everything without a glitch.
No, that has nothing to do with IPAS development. That is the amount PharLap
charges you for distributing their DOS extender. You will get both Metaware and
Pharlap SDK (now it's called TNT) for around $1k. If you decide to write a DOS
program (not IPAS) that uses the PharLap stuff and want to sell it, you have to
pay PharLap royalties. They charge $2,000 for the first 1,000 copies and some
more thereafter. In the case of IPAS'es, you're not "linking" any DOS extender
code. The IPAS routine uses the DOS extender within 3D Studio.
Gus,
Your input is most valuable. Chris Allis has contacted me about the PR efforts
Autodesk is mounting to encourage IPAS development. I'm very encouraged by his
comments.
I received an interesting but rather cryptic reply from the Watcom forum from
Mike Tajmajar of Vibrant, I'd appreciate your comments on it:
"Just put an int3 near your startup, then issue a new/sy CS:OFFSET DS:OFFSET
and away you go"
Was Mike's suggestion how to debug with IPAS without a .TRP. I assume by
startup he's referring to the .DBG file for Video. Any comments on this?
As pointed out in a reply to Jonas, we are low stakes players in the IPAS game,
and attempting our first public offering for SIGGRAPH94, Watcom wants to stay
in the IPAS development game, we do too. We will carry our weight to the best
of our ability and ask for whatever assistance Autodesk and Watcom and provide
in our quest to develop IPAS with Watcom.
All we need now, is help to whatever extent, in creating a KXP .TRP ASAP. We
want to deliver KXP group by SIGGRAPH94.
Thanx, your input is helping us a lot.
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
CIS: 70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
I don't know. The last time I tried Watcom with IPAS was with the very first
IPAS kit for release 2. I was using Watcom 9 at the time. I then switched to
Metaware which I still use. I will take a look at the reply you got from Mike
and see if that's possible. As I have no idea what a Trap file is for and how
it is used, I cannot comment on how to work around it. The "new/sy cs:offset
ds:offset" thing is just to relocate the symbol table. When you load Video, you
are actually debugging 3D Studio. Your IPAS has not even being loaded yet. By
placing a break point at the entry point of your routine (int 3) Video will
stop 3D Studio as soon as you load your KXP. The stuff it is showing will be
your routine but the symbol table still points to 3DS' code and data segment.
By telling video to relocate the symbol table, it will properly show your
symbols.