#OED Test
18 messages in this thread
Could I impose on this forum & get someone to look up a word in the OED &
copy the data to a message for me. I am trying to convince the boss that we
need one for the office but haven't got there yet.
Today we had discussion over whether the plural for STYLUS is STYLII or
STYLUSES as his OED condensed version says. If I could get a complete
printout of the word including history, etc I could show him the usefulness
of the CD.
Thanks in advance,
Dave
David,
The OED says the plurals of stylus are styluses or styli. Stylii is not
acceptable.
The complete entry is about four typed pages. My typing is not up to copying
it and I don't have a scanner at the office. Also my access to the OED is by
a standalone independent on-line service so I cannot make an electronic copy
to my hard disk.
BTW, what business are you in that allows the leisure to debate the plural of
stylus?
Are you in a monastery or a government office? Oh well, time to order some
more styli from the Supply Room.<G>
Regards,
Tim
Tim
you mean that this wonderful OED product can't send output to a file rather
than a printer???
dw
Dave,
I tried to indicate in my reply that my access to the OED was on a
standalone mainframe which I access by a remote terminal not a PC. The
program has a different interface than the OED on CD. From what I've heard
of the OED CD, it allows you to print files and to transfer data to other
apps.
RE: "BTW, what business are you in that allows the leisure to debate the
plural of stylus?
Are you in a monastery or a government office?"
Odd, Tim, when I looked up monastery in my OED I it said: "A place of great
silence, mysticism and contemplation of concepts beyond the understanding
of mere mortals. See government office."
Tim,
pardon my spelling error there – I did mean styli or styluses. Seems
strange that a word can have 2 valid plurals!
If you get 4 pages on a word such as this, it sounds like this OED will be
worth it.
I am actually in a survey company in Malaysia. The styli (styluses?) we use
are in echo-sounders that we use to measure water depths when doing oil
exploration. Malaysia is an ex-British colony & has a British education
system & spelling, but Microsoft refuses to accept this. Our version of
Word for Windows has an American dictionary & I have been unable to get
anyone from Microsoft to admit guilt & send us a free English dictionary.
Our old Word 5.0 had both! I guess this is the price we must pay for
progress?
Thanks for the info anyway, if I tell the boss I can give him 4 pages on
the subject I may be able to sway him.
Dave
Dave,
It's not at all uncommon for a word to have variant acceptable spellings,
particularly if it comes directly from the Latin or other foreign language.
TYhe beauty of the OED is that it is a historical dictionary as opposed to
a normative or prescriptive dictionary like Webster's, and one can see how
the meaing and spelling of words vary over time. Styli is the latin plural
of stylus a direct english borrowing from Latin. Consequently, up until 30
years ago that would be recognized as the proper plural of any educated
person who had even taken a year of Latin. Styluses represents the
application of the standard english way of denoting plurals to a nonenglish
word.
Since few people now have Latin it will tend to have greater currency.
That's probably why your dictionary probably doesn't list styli. Eventually
it will be listed as an archaic use.
As to legnth of entries, you'll find that The OED has the longest entries
for the simplest words which tend to have the longest histories. Newer
hybrid words tend to have much shorter entries, though still long compared
to regular dictionaries.
Regards, Tim
Tim,
they always told me Latin was a dead language & a waste of time
learning. I did it for 5 years anyway because there were only 2 of us in
the class & the other guy was a genius so the teacher could spend all his
time on me! It's a pity that these plurals are being butchered, but that's
the difference between a "living" & a "dead" language I guess. Probably
British English will go the same way from what I read – the British are
about to concede defeat on the spelling of some of their words:
colour/color, center/centre, etc. Microsoft is helping them along the way
by not including "English" dictionaries in it's word processors sold in
Malaysia (where I am) these days!
David…Are there that many spelling differences between American and
English that a separate dictionary is needed or is it just a convenience?
-Larry
Larry,
I guess there must be over 100 differences & possibly up to 500 or
more. In the past (Word 5.0) there use to be 2 dictionaries (AM.LEX &
BR.LEX) for spell-checking, but now we only get the American one in
Malaysia. I guess it's the principle more than anything – being half a
"Pom" (British) myself & living in a country that teaches "English", but
having Microsoft tell us that we can only buy it's products with American
dictionaries. I don't actually know if there is any book that highlights
the difference in spelling & words between the 2 "languages". For example
we never use the word "fall" as a season, we use "autumn". Then there is
"ketchup" (or is that "catsup"?), where we always say "tomato sauce".
That's before we even get into the spelling differences like metre/meter,
centre/center, etc. I am able to put the "correct" spellings into a custom
dictionary, but there seems to be no way to get rid of the "incorrect"
spellings from the standard dictionary, so if we do spell it incorrectly
the word is not picked up.
That's enough complaining for one day, hope I haven't bored you!
Dave.
David…Yes I can see where the American dictionary would be just enough of
a pain to make the English version preferable. Be seeing you.
-Larry
Larry,
the main problem is…after using Word for Windows for 6 months now,
I'm beginning to forget which is the correct spelling, English or American!
A word comes up & I have to look at it 3 or 4 times before taking action.
Dave.
Guys, some more spelling, not vocabulary, diferrences are the color/our
defense/ce, gray/ey curb/kerb et. al. using a a grammar checking (though
obviously not in this correspondece!) I'm told that "lift" or elevator in
limese is a verb and other useful tips. Goes back to the old saw of"…
two countries divided by a common language"
Dave,
I'm a fellow Latin student, also Greek the rmance languages and a bit of
German. Did Churchill say we are two peoples divided by a common language?
It would be a shame to see the English give way on this. I was taught that
the English monarch owned the language and all the ships in the navy. Thats
why they say the Queen's English and HMS.
BTW, who could officially give up for the English as you have no royal
academy. When I read the financial times they use the same spellings and the
American edition of the Economist also uses British terms and expressions.
The OED lists the American spelling honor, e.g. but refers the reader to the
article under the British spelling honour. The OEED notes both spellings were
used up to the 1700's and that the 1623 Shakespear Folio uses honor twice as
frequent as honour. While British writers were settling into the preferred
use of -our ans -re as endings in the end of the 18th, beginning of the 19th
century, the American Noah Webster and others aggressively pushed the
alternative spelllings for patriotic reasons of establishing cultural
independence from the former mother country. No doubt it also helped sell
American dictionaries without competition from the London publishers.<g>
I have not heard complaints from anyone in Britain that Microsoft doesn't
supply a Bitish Lexicon with their product. I would assume the reason they
won't supply you the lexicon is because you probably have an American edition
which may sell more cheaply than the product they sell in Britain<g>.
I would think you should be able to find a third party add-on somewhere.
Regards, Tim
Tim,
I was going to quote something spectacular in Latin, but might
embarrass myself so I won't – haven't actually opened a Latin textbook for
14 years! We didn't have Greek in our school, just Latin, French or German.
Nowadays it's Japanese or Indonesian which makes a lot more sense
geographically (I'm an Australian, in case I hadn't mentioned).
I guess your quote about the Queen owning all the ships & the language says
it all – now the Americans own all the ships & the language is heading that
way as well. The OED is the last bastion of the language!
Here in Malaysia, 90% of dictionaries are Oxford variations (we can buy
American ones for comparison) & all schools teach the British spelling. I
was just peeved that Microsoft Malaysia refuses to even discuss the matter
– they just say "take it or leave it". From conversations in PACFORUM I
believe they have done the same thing in Australia. I'm not against having
all these languages (in the middle of learning Cantonese & Malay at the
moment – can speak reasonable Thai, though I've given up on trying to write
it), just don't like getting unsuitable products dumped on us. We get the
same problems with dates in a lot of software here – Americans use
Month/Day/Year while we use Day/Month/Year. I was pretty happy with Windows
in that you can set your Dates to the format you like, but I recently tried
some Windows software (can't remember the name) that ignored system
settings & forced me to use mm/DD/YY – threw the software away in
frustration!
Dave
Dave,
Sounds like you have your hands full with all those languages. I don't have
any immediate plans to study new ones, but would like to take a trip to
Europe soon to get a chance for more practice, particularly French.
Tim
Tim,
that's the secret – keeping yourself exposed to the language. The
French I did in school was wasted because I have never been near France or
known anyone who spoke French (except my Mum – she has just gone back to
school to learn French again – at 51!). I find Malay quite easy now,
because I work with 60 Malays & we can practise all the time. I only want
to learn Cantonese so I can find out what the girls are talking about when
I go for haircuts! Actually my girlfriend's parents are Chinese & don't
speak a word of English so I had better learn eventually.
Dave.
Who says the British are about to concede defeat on spellings. we most
certainly are NOT!
the only thing we seem to have given way on is the american billion 10^9
instead of 10^12.
dw