#Hi-8 audio tracks? HELP!
18 messages in this thread
I would greatly appreciate an explanation of the different audio tracks that
are available with the Hi -8 format. I am under the impression that up to six
audio tracks are available. A friend has a camcorder that mentions something
about six audio something-or-others…, but the manual is very vague. Is this
the case?
Much thanks,
Tim Peerson
While FOUR audio tracks are indeed available in the Hi8 standard I don't know
of any machine that can address them all at once. Usually only two at a time.
These are the Left and Right PCM and the Left and right AFM tracks. Unless
Sony has released a linear analog track for the format I don't see how two more
tracks would fit. I'm ready to learn about this if it exists.
Don,
I have the Sony EVO-9850 and it can play all 4 tracks at the same time.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom,
I have the 9650 and it can play all 4 tracks at the same time… and I thought
the same thing you did, until I re-read his note… and what he was saying is
that it can't "address" (write to) all 4 tracks at the same which neither none
of them can… BTW what other decks are you using with is it and are they all
RS-232?
John
Hi John, Sorry I'm late getting back to you on this…
You're right, I can only record PCM after the fact… AFM is like the standard
Hi-fi tracks in VHS, laid down as at the same time as video. You can master to
my 9850 and record all 4 tracks at the same time, but once there is video on
the tape only PCM is available. (although my JVC 822 can dub Hi-Fi on video!
Only tried it once because it scares me.. but it did work.
I use a JVC BR-S622, as a second source deck, with either a JVC BR-S822 or a
UWV-1800 as record decks. I can also use the Beta deck as a source deck. All
decks are RS-232 and controlled via VLAN and the new OZ PCE editor. I also just
finished installing my Alladin. What an awesome piece of gear! Nice software
except for Topas Pro which is a joke. I opened the box, looked in the manual
for a bit, then put it back in the box.. Can't sell it either since it's
designed to look for the Alladin. Kind of a _real_ expensive hardware lock <BG>
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom,
>>Sorry I'm late getting back… <<
Hey this is time warp Cyberspace… no problem. 🙂
>> You can master to my 9850 and record all 4 tracks… <<
Interesting, on my 9650, the AFM channel is monoaural and the PCM tracks are
stereo… both are recorded automatically… and all three tracks can be played
back in "mix" mode…, even more curious is that a tape striped on my machine
cannot be read by another 9650! Its a rather peculiar deck in many ways but I
like it and it has proved as versatile in its own way as the Targa, like its
got a built in frame store and you cand do multiple window grabs and it will
record frame by frame… lately I've been playing with it because oddly enough
it has a built-in GPI trigger which can activate the PAR. I don't know of any
other deck which can do this… pretty odd feature for a recorder, but it
something to play with and maybe I'll even get around to building something
with it… animators version of an editing system. <g>
Next I'm going to try insert video with AFM as my sound cue… I'm interested
to see if this will work… PCM is real digital sounding at low speeds and
can't be used to find an edit spot…
I am interested in your VLAN arrangement with OZ PCE editor… how does VLAN
interface with your decks? And how does in work in conjunction with your
Alladin? Does not the Alladin take over that function or is there another
aspect to VLAN that you will continue to use?
>> What an awesome piece of gear! <<
So I've heard. I need to check one out in person. <g>
Thanks,
John
John,
>>how does VLAN interface with your decks? And how does in work in conjunction
with your Alladin? Does not the Alladin take over that function or is there
another aspect to VLAN that you will continue to use?>>
VLAN handles all the deck protocalls, start, stop, preroll all that kind of
stuff, also insures that the edits occur at exact frame accuracy. OZ PCE does
all the interface to the VLAN network. My version is mouse driven but I learned
editing with the first versions of OZ so I never used a traditional edit
console. But OZ does support a traditional jog pod add on. OZ also controls the
Alladin directly, there is no machine control with the Alladin. The Alladin can
be used as a standard switcher via RS-232, but OZ has a special interface that
lets you select and preview effects directly from OZ. Very nice interface,
designed to work specificly with the Alladin if you have one. You only need to
fire up the Alladin interface for building you own effects or CG stuff. I also
use the OZ system with a Video-in a-window card so everything is right there on
the one screen, Video, EDL, Clip bins, CG, still frames & switcher. This is
real desktop video production. I'm waiting for my PVR with digitizer to arrive,
and that will add the NLE part to my system.
The one really nice feature of the Alladin is the ability to design your own
effects. Unlike the toaster of the Sony DFS series, you can warp, twist,
stretch, shrink or do anything to a video signal. All controlled via timeline
type editing. You can start full frame, ball up the video, flatten it out, and
then warp fly it off the screen. anything you can imagine you can do. The
Alladin comes with predefined sets of effects, page peels to standard SMPTE
wipes. Many of the effects that I used to have to generate in VP can now be
done real time on the Alladin.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom,
>> The one really nice feature of the Alladin is the ability to design your own
effects… <<
I find that quite amazing myself, as when I did one inch editing I used an ADO
3000 for that kind of stuff and it couldn't do alot of what the Alladin now
can, which is pretty wild… as a matter of fact the edges on an ADO in stock
configuration were jagged, you had to buy an additional module to produce a
soft key, which I believe was part of the DigiTrail package…
So can you build a cube with it? <g> I have to ask only because it used to be
such a big deal… <g> and because I used to build them on an ADO with a single
channel… which was a pain… as it was all on the fly…
VLAN handles the interface, and apparently the timing… is any of this TBC'd
directly or internally in these decks… I know next to nothing about this
level of video… so that's the reason I'm asking. Can you do match frame
edits with VLAN? This is an important capability if you want to be able to do
transition between multiple effects without a cut or dissolve between them…
like go from a wipe to a spin to a quad split etc… (the quad split might have
to be pre-built…)
So how many channels does the Alladin have for these effects and how many
source decks will the VLAN/OZ system handle? And one more…<g> how many ME
banks can you build on and (part two of one 🙂 do they cascade…? ;^)
Hey I gotta ask you're treading on new territory and inquiring minds want to
know… <MBG>
John
John,
>>..is any of this TBC'd directly or internally in these decks…>>
Each of the source decks has it's own TBC, that is a requirement for the
Alladin, all sources must be TBC'd
>>Can you do match frame edits with VLAN?>>
You bet! thats an absolute requirement. One all the decks are aligned it works
like a champ.
>>So how many channels does the Alladin have for these effects and how many
source decks will the VLAN/OZ system handle?>>
The Alladin has four inputs plus black on the program bus. It then has two
additional layer channels for the effects. It also has two frame buffers to
support each of the special effect layers. The buffer size is 720×486 and
supports full alpha key overlay. (no longer need to rotoscope and render to get
true aliased graphics and video) You can build a special graphic called a Geni
Key that will create an A/B roll from the graphic. For example, you build a
simple frame, the outside of the frame is zero black/alpha, with the inside of
the frame being 128/alpha. As the effect transitions the A roll is inside the
frame, and shrinks as the graphic shrinks or spins or warps etc… the ouside
of the frame is then the B roll source. This has all sorts of possibilities,
it's the kind of effect they use on "Home Improvement".
>>So how many channels does the Alladin have for these effects>>
I think I answered this above.
>> and how many source decks will the VLAN/OZ system handle? >>
VLAN can handle up to 32 devices, video decks, switchers, laser recorders,
audio decks, anything that can talk RS-232/422. I guess if you had that may
devices you would need a room size switcher that they like to show at NAB.
>> And one more…<g> how many ME banks can you build on and (part two of one
🙂 do they cascade…? ;^)>>
I'm not sure what you mean by an ME bank. The Alladin may do what your asking
about, but I'm so new at it I may not know about it. I'm just sitting playing
with it, trying to understand all of the different things it _can_ do. (trying
to plan how many different effects I can encorperate in one 30 second
commercial..<BG>)
Cheers,
Tom
Tom,
>> I'm not sure what you mean by an ME bank… <<
Sorry that's short hand for Mixed Effects… on a standard switcher, you have a
source, a key and a fill, on a bank with all your inputs, which breaks down to
3 sets of switches for each source on one bank, on a Grass Valley for instance
you can ME 3, 6,8 or more banks which when cascaded provide "layering" much
like Video Post only its called cascading… the advantage to which is that you
can do as much as is practical in one pass… course this also assumes you have
a variety of different sources on different tapes…
Making commercials like 30 second spots etc. for a typical car commercial we'd
try to run it in one pass… so that graphics video titles etc. all roll in and
out on cue and the spot is finished… That makes an EDL simple and often they
built them "donut" style where they leave a segment out which can be changed
month to month… that one pass roll makes it easier to fill the "hole"…
>>trying to plan how many different effects I can encorporate in one 30 second
spot… <<
Depends on who the spot is for. <g> Cars and furniture are the two most gaudy
"flash and trash" scenarios you're likely to encounter… in which case you can
throw in what ever you've got… <G> But the question is how long is your
typical transition 2, 1 second or 15 frames? 15 frames to do a page curl is
moving… too fast IMO… that cuts down on "information" time so often those
effects aren't used… where they are used is in bringing in price tages,
specials, keyed whatever in addition to as its double the content or impact ie
reinforces the same message… With industrials on the other hand because
they're typically so boring… with long shots and long cuts… 3 second page
roll is almost mandatory… <g> just to break up the monotony… We had a guy
who was very content do those so I did the trashy stuff. <g>
I need to find out more about the Alladin… and VLAN as well, neither of which
do I have good sources for unfortuneately… but I'll dig around…
Actually if you have their numbers and can post them I'll see what they have in
the way of catalogs… if they'll send them… course I imagine at Siggraph
both will be represented and that may be a good place to find out more as
well… will you be there? Maybe we could run some of this stuff down together
if you're interested…
Thanks,
John
John,
Ok, now I know what you mean about ME. With the Alladin, you have the two
layers that can be keyed over the program bus. I guess that gives you three
layers, the program buss and effects that can run on either of the 2 layers.
Yes I'm going to try and get to Siggraph, depends on how my schedule ends up.
If I can make it we'll definitely hook up and talk. Remeber to bring your
pocket protector, since I'm sure well talk about all sorts of nerdy stuff
<G>…
The number for Videomedia is 408-227-9977. They are local here to me near San
Jose, CA. I'm sure they have other offices around. The develop both VLAN and
the OZ PCE system.
Cheers,
Tom
OK, but can you address then individually? ie. insert edit A1 while listening
to A2, A3, A4? Or can you put different audio on each track, such as: Music
stereo on tracks 1 and 2. Sound effects on track 3 and a voice over on track 4?
Then edit the video pictures for a video follows audio style. as an insert
video without disrupting any of the audio? I don't think this IS possible.
Educate me as to what the new Hi8 format has developed!
Of course none of the formats is capable of this. Thats why the industry
resorts to ADAT systems with RS-422 control and time code. I have done a
similar 4 track control here by using two betacams with addressable linear
tracks to lay down an audio 4 channel independent edit. I lock both betacam,
players to the same inpoint on the controller and now I have a 4 channel audio
player. I have to edit these tapes separately but this is no problem as I do
the sound effects and VO on one tape and the music stereo on the other tape.
Once edited separately I roll both and mix the output to 2 channels for stereo
on the recorded master.
Thanks,
Don
Don,
I get kind of jumpy when I attmt to say things to you about video because I am
in awe of your knowledge sometimes, but here goes…
My 9850 can record four independant tracks at the same time… but with video.
If you have already laid down the video, you only have access to the 2 PCM
tracks, which you can the record after the fact. You are correct, as far as I
know that you cannot do four track edits with any of the video format tape
decks. ( although I do seem to remeber seeing something about the high end Beta
decks that might do this, but I'm not sure.) If you saw my reply to John, I do
have a JVC BR-822U that can record a Hi-fi tracks under video, but you only can
do one pass. you have to get it right or your stuck with the way it is. I don't
use the feature very much, too scarey for me to do things in the video layer.
The real answer to the problem are the new RS-232 controlled DAT type decks
with 8 tracks. you can then just sync roll the DAT and the video decks.
Cheers,
Tom
Yes, I was aware of the Hi8 feature to post stripe a new PCM track which will
lay down two channels os audio at the same time. I was not aware of any deck
that can do this with the AFM tracks. Since you have the 9850, can you lay
down the audio tracks and then insert the video without affecting the audio?
This short coming was always a problem with Hi8 for editing and the reason I
stay away from it. To my knowledge the AFM tracks on the betacam SP format can
only be recorded with video too.
The ability of laying in a HiFi track to VHS video is interesting. Do you know
if the video must be void of the HiFi track to begin with? It could be that
they have no way of erasing the original HiFi track for recording the second.
Seems this technique might be technically possible with AFM as well??
Don (a student of video science <G>) Landis
Hi don,
>>I was not aware of any deck that can do this with the AFM tracks>>
I may have mislead you here, it can only do this while you are laying down the
video, AFM is like the Hi-Fi in VHS as you know. This allows you to do stereo
AFM, at the time you record the video, but as you know, only PCM can be post
dubbed.
>> can you lay down the audio tracks and then insert the video without
affecting the audio?>>
Yes, but it obliterates the AFM audio if there was any, you can only lay video
down and keep the PCM tracks intact.
>>The ability of laying in a HiFi track to VHS video is interesting. Do you
know if the video must be void of the HiFi track to begin with?>>
No the Hi-Fi tracks can be already be recorded. Remember my caveat, you can
only try the Hi-Fi dub once, it will trash the video portion if you try more
than one pass. As far as I know, the JVC BR-S822U is the only deck that can do
this. I have only tried this technique to see how it worked, I would not trust
trying it on a master tape unless there was no other way to fix the problem.
Trying to learn from Mr. Science,
Tom
Thanks for clarifying the 9850 features. It's good to talk to someone who
actually is using one.
I was eavesdropping on your post about the Alladin. Your comment about the
pixel size caught my eye. It's been over a year since I had a hands on demo of
the system here but I recall the Alladin was 640X480 square pixels. Have they
changed this along the way? What puzzles me is how they are maintaining
compatibility with the 640X480 Video Machine output. Maybe they have a
secondary output that can be configured for the lower resolution.
I know of four. 2 PCM digital and 2 AFM. These last two are generally laid down
w/ the video and can't be changed. It has been 2 years since I've bought my
unit. Hope this helps.
>>up to six audio tracks on Hi-8, vague camcorder manual…
Tim,
You may be referring to the "Multi-PCM" digital audio mode on some Sony
machines. One of my Sony 8mm (not Hi-8) decks has the ability to record six
independent stereo track pairs on a tape in an audio-only mode. You can access
only one stereo pair at a time, so it is generally not useful as a multi-track
audio deck. In this "Multi-PCM" mode, the extra tracks are physically on the
tape in place of the video signal. It sounds fantastic even though the PCM
format samples the audio signal at somewhat less than the 44KHz CD standard.
It's biggest advantage may be the ability to fit 6 hours of digital audio on
one tape.
This multi-PCM option may be a Sony-only feature and not a standard. I also
don't know if it is specifically available on Hi-8 decks – neither of my (Sony)
Hi-8 machines have it.
JKJ