#Workbench for novices
13 messages in this thread
The user who just bought his amiga and has little access to other users or to
public information services is precisely whom one wishes to protect from
accidentally destroying the integrity of his software with an underinformed
delete, rename, move, etc.
Someone who can't lean on others to get him out of messes needs to have
controled access to his file structure unless and until he either learns CLI
from the Bantam book or purchases CLImate/DiskMaster/Zing!
This is _not_ a Weak Workbench, this is a Powerful Workbench, that can put
exactly those and only those files into the novicedomain that the developer
intends. It is trivial for an operating system to make "every" file available.
It takes thought and consideration for an operating system to make only _some_
files easily available, and some readily available (through CLI), and some
nearly unavailable (through system flags).
You are criticizing a diamond cutter for not being a lumberjack. Have you no
taste?
Let's take multitasking on floppies. The Amiga is supposed to multitasking
– a big selling point of the computer, no? Well, if you can't manipulate files
around, if you can't set up a RamDisk, delete printer drivers and superflous C:
commands off a systems disk (which careful instructions could guide someone to
do reasonably, -IF- the interface allowed for it) then multitasking on the
Amiga becomes a tremendous chore instead of a wonderful tool. Disk swapping
will happen so frequently that I'm not sure any multitasking with a serious
program could get very far – one may be able to multitask the lines, dots, and
circle demos on the Extras disk, however.
I don't believe in taking fundamental control away from a user. I think it's
stupid, to be honest – citizens in the USA have the right to bear arms (with
proper permits, etc. just in case that arm is used improperly) and allowed to
drive cars (which can kill.) I think it's an actual philosophy that we are
disagreeing over, instead of a WorkBench issue. I think the philosophy of
someone limiting someone else's control is incorrect.
You don't know how to multitask yet. If you have two drives, you park some
of the workbench's annoyances (the C: stuff) in RAM or vd0: or REZ, and proceed
happily to multitsask free as a bird. If you have one drive, you buy ANOTHER
ONE!
If you have small memory, you greatly limit your ability to multitask.
These are the cold hard facts. Also, if you run programs which do a LOT of
disk access, you're inviting disk swap city by trying to multitask other
things. The best thing for DOS stuff in the Amy's multitasking envirnment is
something like DurUtil, which has all the code IN it to do copy, delete,
makedir, type, etc. (about 30-K, I think). Put that where you can get to it,
and if you need DOS commands, use it, and it won't bother you for disks.
The C: commands have a major advantage: They can be customized to the
user'sneeds. On distribution disks, for examp, you need not GIVE them anything
you don't want them to have (like DELETE!). In addition, those little files
can be upgraded and changed easily and simply.
The original Amiga was (stupidly) only 256-K. That's probably why more
stuff wasn't made resident.
J:
This was about WORKBENCH, see the subject? Now, how do you copy the C:
commands to RAM: or VD0: without using the CLI? Since you can't from WorkBench
only, WorkBench doesn't multitask easily. Since the Amiga is a multittasking
computer as a main selling point, this limitation of WorkBench limits the Amiga
in its main strong point.
Henry, why would you _need_ to copy _any_ C: commands to VD0,
UNLESS YOU WERE ALREADY USING CLI?
If you are already using CLI, you move the C: commands to RAM: WITH THE CLI!
If you don't like using the CLI, and prefer a visual interface, use CLImate or
Zing! or Browse or DiskMaster or DirUtil.
But that is all that's going on, your personal taste for visual interface over
CLI, and you want to put every novice user at hazard in order to save you the
trouble of clicking on a Browse icon? How thoughtless!
You're being so melodramatic! Put the novice user at hazard! Indeed, as if
novice users blunder about deleting things right and left. Most novices I've
known as a salesman doing this for years are PETRIFIED of deleting and format
operations. They don't even believe that a "copy" is real and won't experiment
with keystrokes.
The problem with the hidden files is even deeper than taking control from the
Amiga. It is a lie – it gives a false impression and sense of how the computer
really feels and operates.
Think of it in the same way you would think of a bicycle with training wheels
Henry. You can use the training wheels until you are advanced enough to
dispense with them, and then you can use it in a more sophisticated manner. If
you want to argue that WorkBench should let you go farther, that's fine, but it
is not the same as saying that it cripples the machine, or that it is a lie. It
does what it was intended to do; provide the novice user with an easy means of
using the machine.
-larry
Henry,
All front ends are a 'lie'. You don't HAVE to know what the computer is
actually doing, and if you were forced to deal with it, you'd still be using an
abacus.
The Nervous Novice you see is not the only response to computers I've seen.
There have been several times here that new users came wailing into CO or the
base, bemoaning the fact that they had deleted this or that because they
'didn't know it was needed'.
The WB front end is for Users, and for running _finished_ things, not system
maintenance. It's good at what it is suposed to do. I would like to have the
ability, as an experienced operator, of having it do system maintenance. BUT,
a neophyte would be _more_ intimidated by having all those things available to
him, not reassured. Once he knows about write protecting, it's next to
impossible to 'screw up' the system disk from WB, and even if it's not
protected, it's still difficult to do.
WB is for 'friendly' first, not for power. What is really needed is a
seperate CLIMate type of thing, and that is available, as well as the power of
CLI. Those are used by knowlegable users, and NOT the first timer, as they
should be. The First Timer wants easy, and wants friendly, and WB delivers
that.
Doug
Henry, sometimes I think you're just pretending to be thick. Other times, I'm
not so sure. Your insistance that WB must be able to configure itself in order
to be useful is nonsense. There are well written instructions for producing a
'working' WB disk (and YES it requires you to use the CLI). The fact that one
is required to use the CLI in order to make a good WB disk HAS NOTHING TO DO
WITH THE UTILITY of the WorkBench. Doing the original configuring of the
working disk is NOT something that is done often, and I see no reason to
require the WB facilitate doing it. Next your going to bitch that you have to
use an EDITOR to change the startup-sequence. "Why can't I just line up the
Icons in a row?" I hear you cry. Incidently, try running around 20 copies of
the DOTS demo from the WB. Did it work? Is that multi-tasking? Since we have
all tried that, and it works, and it it mulit-tasking; I'm wondering what YOU
mean by multi-tasking, since it doesn't seem to be what everyone else calls
multi-tasking.
The user has full fundamental control on Amiga. One earns one's license for
free by learning CLI, or one can pay for it by purchasing Zing CLImate
DiskMaster, or one can be given it via Browse Diskman etc.
You don't appear to have thought about this very hard. The topic here is
WorkBench for Novices. Based on experiments in my own home, WorkBench is
four-year-old proof (though I suppose a floppy could be formatted). Neither
guns nor automobiles are safe for four-year-olds, and it's hard to imagine how
they could be made safe.
Do you disagree with the entire concept of hidden files?
I don't know about Henry, but I do. A computer is for people. Being a novice
is a condition that does not last long. If workbench is to be considered a
interface for all users it must show you all files.
And therein lies the crux of the question… "if WB is to be considered an
interface for all users". Well, clearly it is _not_ an interface for all users
as it stands, nor will it ever be _truly_ for all users, since there will
always be some who prefer other interfaces.
I see a very large difference between saying that it does not go far enough
and saying that it's broken, crippling, and/or unusable.
-larry
I could live with it better if it were a toggle, but it isn't even that. It's a
castration.