#DCTV/AGA
31 messages in this thread
Has anyone thought/heard anything about what could/should happen with
DCTV and the AGA chipset? Since it outputs Composite video, and it's
output is inferior to the Toaster's – this would be amazing! Sure AGA is
better than DCTV, but you can't get AGA to tape so easy. So… if DCTV
does indeed work on hires 16 color ECS data now through the RGB port, then
maybe it can be programmed to translate the much higher resolution/colors
of AGA to GREAT Composite Video. VERY INTERESTING! oh, btw, This thread
was picked up from Digital Creations' BBS, and I want to know more! (I
love DCTV, but boy oh boy, if it could do animations with Toasterlike (or
beyond) resolution ,LOOK OUT!
I have both a 4000 and DCTV. I get only black and white from DCTV! I
checked everything out and the DCTV unit and monitor aren't the problem.
I'm not sure what is…So much for Great Composite Video with the AGA chips
🙁
Stephen,
Except for digitizing, you may want to forget using DCTV with your 4000.
If you buy an encoder or genlock, you can put all the AGA NTSC modes (320,
640 or 1280 x 400) on video as easily or easier than with DCTV. And in the
case of a genlock, you can do more than with DCTV alone.
Great AGA composite is a snap, all you need is an A520 encoder for $35,
or one of the higher-quality encoders for around $100.
-Chris
I thought the 1200 and 4000 had composite outputs built in? (like the
600)… not true?
Tim
Tim,
The 1200 has color composite output but my 4000 doesn't seem to have
it.
Goin' AP6
…..Mark Sterling6
Tim,
The A1200 has color composite output (looks pretty good), but I don't
think the A4000 does.
-Dave (via AutoPilot)
Ah, you caught me there! <g> I own an A4000 and it doesn't have a
built-in encoder… but the A1200 does! Sorry I omitted that.
-Chris
"…but you can't get AGA to tape so easy."
Huh? All you have to do is add an encoder like the A520 ($35 street
price) and tape with mode promotion off. Plus existing genlocks will work
with AGA (as opposed to _no_ genlocks with DCTV).
With my GVP GLock and AGA, I can genlock or chromakey DCTV quality AGA
images _with_ video, and animate them very quickly. In hires, the image
gets much better than DCTV quality.
As for a new 'higher-res' composite DCTV output from the AGA modes, the
chances of that happening are almost nil. Consider that AGA already does
HAM8 at 1280×400 and that is considered the 'ultimate' resolution for
NTSC/broadcast… it is also about twice the res of the Toaster.
People contemplating the utility of using DCTV with AGA modes should just
forget it. DCTV was derrived as a way to exploit the Denise's highest
bandwidth (4 bitplane hires), because no lores/hicolor mode (8 bitplane
lowres) with the same bandwidth was supported. Denise (ECS) could have
done this if it just _allowed_ you to use that mode, resulting in perhaps
256 out of 4096 colors (low res) or a new HAM mode allowing all 4096
colors with _no_ fringing; Going a bit further by adding a larger palette
would make this fantasy Denise chip a close cousin to AGA.
But Commodore took a bigger leap than that, so we went right from old ECS
to AGA today. And AGA, unlike ECS, permits full color depth at any
standard resolution… thus no non-HAM high-bandwidth resolutions for DCTV
to exploit.
-Chris
Chris,
so, with an AGA machine, you're saying DCTV is no good except as a
digitizer, right? Since as I understand it is a "slow scan" digitizer,
are there better options for digitizing to AGA?
We're planning to buy an A1200 with DCTV for digitizing but maybe theres
a better way to digitize in the same price range?
Thanks.
Tim
Tim,
A European mfg. called ROMBO makes another slow-scan digitizer (the Vidi)
for #99 (Brittish pounds). It's less expensive than DCTV and claims better
results than DigiView (DigiView can save IFF24's which are 21bit accurate,
although it can't actually render to a 24bit screen). Digiview's quality
is considered potentially much better than DCTV, but DV is slower and more
painstaking to use and requires a color splitter for color cameras. The
ROMBO, like DCTV, scans quickly and without need for a splitter; If it can
save IFF24 at 18-24bit accuracy then this would seem to be the best low
end digitizer. Looking in the AC Guide, I see the Spectrum by Preferred
Technologies International (214) 702-9191 which is a 24bit
frame-grabber/buffer for $549. Another unit from the Guide is the
FrameBuffer/Amiga by Reliable Communications (800) 222-0042 is a 24bit
display/framegrabber for $695.
For finer results, going with a scanner is the thing to do. And I
understand Sharp's JX-300 1/2 page color scanner is going pretty cheap
these days. ASDG may be a good place to start looking for a
software/hardware package, but you can find these advertised by some
mailorder places.
-Chris
Chris,
thanks for the good info. I think we'll be staying with the DCTV
for one thing because it fits in its own case… I would guess that the
other frame grabbers you mentioned, which, while probably better, would
not fit in an A1200. We went with the 1200 because 1) the company barely
permitted this Amiga purchase, 2) the price, and 3) the portability. We
do multimedia presentations to customers and the A1200 seems to be a good
fit.
Thanks again!
tim
sen
Chris,
#99 (British Pounds) translates to about 250 Deutschmarks. For DM300 you
can get Masoboshi's MVD-819. This is a real-time digitizer much like the
VLab. My partner has the VLab and the only differences I could see are:
1.VLab does sequences faster 2.MVD-819 saves IFF24 MUCH faster 3.VLab has
a powerful DeInterlace operation.
I've had this digitizer in my 2000 for a month now and it works fine. Not
sure whether it supports NTSC, though.
I never got my DCTV to digitize properly. The image was always ripped
apart in several places. What did I do wrong?
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
Chris,
-> (as opposed to _no_ genlocks with DCTV).
Wrong. I use DCTV with the RGB converter and a Sirius genlock. Works
perfectly. Instead of replacing color zero with the video signal the setup
will replace anything close to (0,0,0). The proximity needed for
replacement can be adjusted on the converter.
BTW as I hear, NOTHING animates as fast as DCTV in true color, not even
AGA.
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
Thomas,
I hadn't considered the RGB converter, perhaps because it adds about $250
on to the price of a $400 DCTV.
As for DCTV animation speed, I think you are seriously underestimating
the speed of AGA and are probably uninformed about the bandwidths involved
and what passes as 'true color'.
First, DCTV on an ECS machine cannot match AGA's speed.. period. Assuming
the comparison is made between DCTV on AGA and AGA itself, DCTV will be no
faster than AGA. At their fastest, DCTV would use a 3bitplane hires screen
(providing 6bitplanes at lowres); whereas AGA can animate a 6bitplane
lowres HAM screen using the 16-million color palette (as opposed to ECS's
6bitplane HAM with only 4K colors).
Using DCTV on an AGA machine becomes a non-issue if you want flexibility
in resolutions and display formats for your work; AGA wins hands down. For
an AGA user, the money that would be spent on DCTV would be better used on
a basic hires 24bit framegrabber or a scanner.
One should also consider DCTV's product life, which is now seriously in
doubt. I'm certain that if DCTV were a marketable product for use on AGA
machines, Digital Creations would not have worked to develop their new
Brilliance paint program (which their ad states as supporting AGA, yet I
don't see mention of DCTV support).
-Chris
Chris,
-> […] RGB converter […] adds about $250 to the price of a $400 DCTV.
My converter cost a lot less. I bought it together with DCTV.
-> As for DCTV animation speed
I read a comparison in comp.sys.amiga.graphics using three popular AGA
_and_ DCTV capable anim players. the fps values were highest for DCTV.
-> you […] are probably uninformed about […] what passes as 'true
-> color'.
I know that neither DCTV's lower resolution 2-4M colors nor HAM8 with its
high resolution 256K+ colors are true color. They both are, though, "true
colors" to the unsuspecting viewer, which is what our customers are.
-> DCTV would use a 3bitplane hires screen (providing 6bitplanes at
-> lowres); whereas AGA can animate a 6bitplane lowres HAM screen using
-> the 16-million color palette (as opposed to ECS's 6bitplane HAM with
-> only 4K colors)
HAM6, even from a 24bit palette must look a lot worse than DCTV 3bit.
Especially when put through the RGB converter and viewed on a good monitor
or recorded through a good Y/C genlock.
-> Using DCTV on an AGA machine becomes a non-issue if you want
-> flexibility in resolutions and display formats for your work; AGA wins
-> hands down.
I don't care about high resolutions and flicker free output (unless on my
20" monitor, that is), because I output to video. PAL Video is 736×566
INTERLACED. What good are new modes to ME if I can't get them to video?
I realize, though, that most people will have a use for these modes, and I
acknowledge the benefit they are for the Amiga as a system. As much as I
like the A4000, AGA is not what I need for my business. I'm happy that
they did it, though, and I'm looking forward very much to the new Low-end
and High-End chip sets as related to us by Mr. Eggebrecht. They are a
couple more years down the road, however.
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
Thomas,
Unless your speed comparisons are between identical anim sequences played
with identical anim software with identical/equivolent depth and
resolution then the comparison doesn't mean anything. And DCTV users
especially tend to compare their units on very suspecting and misleading
terms (such as the commonly referred to 'hires' DCTV format.. yeah, hires
to the Amiga maybe).
"HAM6, even from a 24bit palette must look a lot worse than DCTV 3bit."
How so? DCTV's encoding method is no better than HAM, although different.
HAM also does have the advantage of being built in and being well
understood by developers. Unless you can back your "must look a lot worse"
statements with facts, you're just a biased DCTV user who would comdemn
AGA HAM before even witnessing or thorougly testing it. Actually, I have
experimented with HAM6 in my DPaint/AGA demo and just having the larger
24bit palette made a suprising difference over ECS.
As for the advantages of the other modes, you can certainly benefit by
moving up to hires HAM video. The A4000 can animate an 8bitplane hires
interlaced NTSC/PAL screen at or near 30fps, with large deltas. If it's
true that DCTV's output is good enough, yet the specs of the high-end
chipset appeal to you, then you obviously desire a better display; AGA
will be that better display for some time to come.
-Chris
Chris,
Thanks for your views. I guess I'll have to take a closer look at the
4000.
Tom / Amiga Imagineer from Switzerland with AutoPilot engaged
In fact, the high resolution HAM the AGA chips can generate is a far more
accurate method than is DCTV; it actually *is* high-res (640) (or
Super-high (1280), for that matter), while DCTV produces low-resolution
(320) lines which are staggered 1 high-res pixel left and right on
alternate lines.
AGA HAM also can reach any corner or sub-location in the entire
colorspace, which DCTV cannot do.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Chris,
>I can genlock or chromakey DCTV quality AGA images _with_ video, and
animate them very quickly.
Ok Chris you probably know what I'm going to ask ;). How? What AGA
aware software are you using to assemble anims in any AGA mode. What AGA
paint program are you using to touch up and add hand animated effects to
individual frames? And what AGA/3.0 aware software are you using to play
those elusive full speed anims? – Now I know that all this is coming, but
I am getting a bit impatient.
BTW since those AGA files can get mighty big, and since DCTV packs a
tremendous amount of info in is jpeg like file compression algorythm.
Using 4 or even 3 bitplane DCTV pics I can create and play REALLY long
animation sequences on my 18 meg 4000 – much longer than I could using a
straight AGA IFF file based anim. I kind of like to think of my DCTV as a
poor man's, realtime, Jpeg like, compression/decompression hardware ;).
Actually as real AGA softeware becomes a reality my DCTV will see less
use. But if I need to "work soft" there is NOTHING I have found that comes
close to DCTV paint. I love that program!
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
Paul,
Rend24 assembles ANIMs in the new AGA modes and scan rates. VT (ViewTek)
plays AGA ANIMs and will also display IFFs and true-color formats such as
JPEG and IFF24 in HAM8 mode. Other than that you can find commercial
software support for AGA in AdPro and ImageMaster. Every DCTV animation
I've seen was in actuality an IFF ANIM file.. If your reference to
JPEG-like compression meant the relative size of a DCTV image to other
'true color' formats, then HAM8 is just as good.
I don't as yet have AGA-capable paint software, since I don't own
ImageMaster and DPaintIV-AGA hasn't arrived yet (it was 'free' with the
A4000 Power-up deal). However, I don't have much of a need for one. I
don't know if it's released yet, but DCTV Paint seems to be history with
Digital Creations.. their new Brilliance program has been advertised
recently. Still, I'll be happy with DPaintIV-AGA; the demo I downloaded
works great.
I suggest you start spending less time with DCTV and give yourself a
chance to acquire some AGA software. <G>
-Chris
Chris,
Have you actually used Rend24 to produce HAM8 anims? I have and found
that I had to lock the palette. The results were very much inferior to
HAM8s rendered by Imagemaster, or to DCTV pics for that matter. This could
of course be due to a user error on my part. BTW my current version of IM
also has problems with creating HAM8 anims.)
ViewTek is a GREAT viewer! But it was designed for speed and has no fancy
palette choosing algorythms. It was not designed for quality display, but
for quick views of your your files.
>Every DCTV animation I've seen was in actuality an IFF ANIM file.. If
your reference to JPEG-like compression meant the relative size of a DCTV
image to other 'true color' formats, then HAM8 is just as good.
Yes, yes, OK, you've got me there. DCTV anims are of course IFF. I was
referring to DCTV's method of seeing the image as an analog wave form and
storing that analog information in it's file format. I understood that
Jpeg compressions worked in a like manor. But you are wrong about file
size. I took a 24bit 736×482 full color image of one of my students and
converted it to DCTV 3 bitplane, DCTV 4 bitplane, and HAM8 formats:
DCTV 3BP –>106208
DCTV 4BP –>150706
HAM8 ——>323786
As you can see HAM8 files are over twice the size of DCTV 4BP files and
over three times the size of DCTV 3BP files. That means page flipping
anims of over three times the length by using DCTV. And keep in mind that
for the most part DCTV picture quality exceeds that of VHS tape.
>I suggest you start spending less time with DCTV and give yourself a
chance to acquire some AGA software. <G>
I believe I have gotten a hold of most of the AGA software that is
already out there. As I have said, as more AGA aware software (Brilliance,
Dpaint AGA, etc.) become reality I will use it and my DCTV will see less
use. But I'll also restate that if you have enjoyed making images by
pushing paint around with a brush you would love the look and feel of DCTV
<continued>
Paul,
That's strange because I just sold my HAM-E and before that I was using
the current IP to render to HAM8. It crashed ocassionally in doing so, and
Rend24 beat it (in quality) on many images. I find I have to use "high
quality" mode in Rend24 most of the time.. I just leave it on.
Right about ViewTek's palette selection.. but it's still very good for a
fast viewer. No reasons not to preview in full color anymore.
I'm not wrong about the sizes, Paul. That HAM8 picture was twice the size
of the DCTV picture because -I assume you must have- used hires. DCTV
outputs a lores signal (it's trading off the resolution of the original
IFF format for more colors… 4bp hires = 8bp lores). If you were using
lores HAM8, then there is something severely wrong with your
rendering/saving program.
I won't get into the look and feel of software, but I'll remind you that
Brilliance was written by some of the same people who wrote DCTV Paint
(makes sense, it's put out by the same company). I would expect Brilliance
to have the same basic user interface features and more. We could take
bets on whether DPaint/AGA or Brilliance will ship first.. my money is on
DPaint.
-Chris
Chris,
The quality problem with REND24 only happens when rendering an anim,
which I found required a "locked palette". Which brings up another
question. There are NO palette concerns with DCTV. I would think that
unless the next generation animation software supports palette changes on
the fly, then HAM8 anims would suffer if they were forced to conform to
the palette of the first frame. There is also the issue of compositing
images with very different base palettes. Since DCTV seems to work with 24
bit internally, and there are no palette concerns, compositing in DCTV
paint is a pleasure (aways save in 24bit format and you'll have no NSTC
artifacts in you pics). I've heard that Brilliance also maintains 24 bit
accuracy internally. I don't no about Dpaint.
Yeah, you got me again! ( I hate when this happens 😉 ) The HAM8 file
was hires since I converted directly from a 736×482 24 bit file. But
saying that DCTV is also lores is true, but not the whole story. From what
I understand DCTV take all the image data of say a hires 24 bit file
rendered in Imagine and displays as an NSTC analog picture. This analog
information is what is stored in each DCTV file. So since NSTC video is by
nature lores – so are DCTV pics. That is not the same as actually
converting a hires bitmap to lowres bitmap where choices have to be made
as to what pixels to leave out. Will a lores HAM8 look as good as a hires
pic displayed by DCTV? I don't know – I'll try some!
BTW I've heard that Dpaint AGA is shipping. I'll try to order mine next
week!
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
paint. Time will tell if the new generation of AGA paint programs will be
able to duplicate the painterly (is that a word? 🙂 ) feel of DCTV paint.
…AutoPilot Engaged…
-Paul-
Christopher,
Electronic Arts tells us that Deluxe Paint IV AGA is now shipping.
-mark=
"..Deluxe Paint IV AGA is now shipping."
Goody! 😀 Thanks for interjecting with that bit of info, Mark.
-Chris
I am not sure about DCTV and AGA machines. In the short run I would think,
as someone else here suggested, that DCTV would be a nice way to get FAST
anim rates out to video AND keep image storage sizes to a minimum.
In any case, with ECS or older machines, DCTV does work well with genlocks
if you add the DCTV RGB converter. In fact, you can then access all DCTV
software (e.g., DCTV Paint) in RGB mode, yet see composite output.
If I were buying an Amiga today, of course I'd go for AGA and I would
forego DCTV. If I were upgrading an existing Amiga, DCTV might be more
cost-effective, depending on your purposes. If you eventually move up from
ECS to AGA, DCTV may be quite useful in the near future, assuming they are
truly compatible (I thought I'd heard of others who used DCTV successfully
with an AGA setup). In the long run, I would expect AGA-capable hardware
and software to overtake DCTV.
Ron,
As I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, DCTV does no better in
speed and sizes than AGA. But you hit the nail on the head when you said,
"If I were buying an Amiga today, of course I'd go for AGA and I would
forego DCTV."; This thread is about using DCTV _on_ an AGA machine, which
to me doesn't make much sense.
-Chris
Well, it makes a little bit of sense – digitization, #1, and also the fact
that a DCTV anim can be played faster on an AGA machine then it can on
older chipset based hardware
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I beg to differ.
It seems that AGA is very easy to get to tape (at least on the 1200 I just
got). It has color composite out. I sold my DCTV when I got my 1200
because I simply saw no reason to keep it. AGA looks sharper (although it
takes up more space on your HD) and I have it hooked right up to my 4-head
Hi-Fi VCR. Seems to work good (except when you use the screen doubling,
the TV wont display it of course!)
Jon