Looking for Used Betacam
19 messages in this thread
I'm a 3D Studio user who is looking for a used BVW-series or PVW-series deck
for frame accurate animation recording. Have looked into Sony's Writeable
LaserDisk, but don't like the idea of a $400 write once disk. Any feedback on
expected price ranges is appreciated.
Gary:
>> I don't like the idea of a $400 write once disk
The actual number of frames on the disk is 88,000. If you divide it out,
(400/88000) you end up with around $0.0045 per frame! Two/fifths of a cent
per frame is pretty cheap (less than 7 cents for a 5 second animation),
especially considering that with a direct RGB input, you don't need to buy
an RGB to Component transcoder, which could run you somewhere between 5 to
10 thousand $$$ for a good quality unit.
Also, no frames on the laser disk are wasted, as are with conventional tapes
in frame-by-frame recording. We used to have a tape for every project –
with a 20 minute BetaSP tape running $25 or so, in 16 jobs you have paid an
equivalent $400 amount, and a disk will hold _many_ more than 16 jobs! When
was the last time you rendered 88,000 frames?
Add this to the fact that with standard computer RS-232 serial, you can
control the deck with a true 3DS ADI driver for $595, you are saving again!
Also, the speed of recording in a production environment is important to
many people. Tha laser disk can record frames as fast as you can bring
them up on your screen, no pre-roll, post-roll, or wear-and-tear on the
unit! And you have a non-linear editing system for playback to boot!
Since a Laser CRV-3000n will run around $15,500 – the same price as a BetaSP
PVW-2800, no extra $$$ for a transcoder, inexpensive drivers, cheaper and
more reliable media, and faster speed, you may want to re-think your
decision! <g>
Greg (Lasers-r-us) Pyros
Greg,
PMJI but ……….. The only problem is that with a write once media, you
can't insert edit, and with very few post houses running the laserdisks, you
still need a way to dump the media to SP to use it. In this area, we have over
200 post houses and we haven't been able to find a single one that has the
capabilities to dump from laserdisk.
Also with the average frame accurate deck we can use low cost tapes to dump
from disk, and only use the high $ tapes for final output.
I love the laserdisk idea, and would gladly write a check for a couple if there
was an easier way to dump to SP or D2 for post work.
As you know we've tried to talk our current client into getting one but, as
with most of our clients, they don't want the hassle of having to go through a
second facility to get the stuff on SP, and with the 2800 being the low end of
the SP spectrum a self contained suite would cost around $30,000.
How about talking Sony into making a laserdisk recorder with a built in SP deck
for straight recording from the laserdisk? Kinda like the Abekas/D2 solution,
One machine for both purposes.
Paul
Paul:
>> In this area, we have over 200 post houses and we haven't been able to
>> find a single one that has the capabilities to dump from laserdisk.
You need to move out here, closer to Hollywierd! And having the main Sony
facility in the area doesn't hurt, either!
I think the perfect setup (for us, at least) is to have the laser for
computer output, and a PVW-2800 with an editor to control the laser and the
deck. It would give the best of both worlds, and allows you to insert edit
onto the tape if you need to, and add sound. Maybe even incorporate our
3/4" decks into it for A/B/C roll in the future!
As I mentioned in my previous message, for the price of a good transcoder to
go from RGB to Component, you could practically buy the laser unit and use
that! <g> Until the BetaSP decks have RGB input, or the Vista has
Component output, I'll stick with the laser! <g>
When you need to do any editing, you will need two units, why not make one
the laser?
Viva le Differance! That's why they make (and we sell) both!
Greg (opinionated, as usual) Pyros
Greg,
I agree with you on all points, guess I always want the best of everything. I
wonder if it would be possible to use the laserdisk as an encoder and still use
the diaquest as the frame accurate trigger? Would the Laserdisk cause any
problems by having the signal pumped through it?
Also since we're on the subject, what kind of quality do you get from the
Laserdisk as an encoder versus something along the lines of the Grass Valley
Units?
We managed to get a delay of two days on delivery of the SP unit, so we have
until next Thursday. Did you happen to get a price on the CV22?
Paul
Paul:
>> use the laserdisk as encoder
Sure, why not! Actually, for the last few days we've had two laser disk
recorders in here, the CRV-5000a and the CRV-3000n for final tweaking of the
drivers. That is exactly what we did, running RGB into one, component from
that into the other, and just recording on whichever one we hooked the
serial cable into! Worked fine!
Would work fine with DiaQuest attached to the PVW deck instead.
You can tell the unit to turn off it's motor if there is no disk inside, so
there wouldn't be any wear and tear whatsoever! But if I had both a laser
and a BetaSP deck, I'd probably record animations to the laser most of the
time, except for 'live' flic recording!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
Ah the joys of being an authorized dealer<g>
Unfortunately all of our equipment comes out of pocket. I am 99% sure we'll
pick up a 3000 unit before the winter. I'd love to have one just for the
archivial use. Until then we're stuck with our walls of tapes!
That's a nice feature to allow passthrough with the motors off.
My SP thoughts were mainly based on our unorthodoxed way of dumping to tape. We
often have animations that take an hour a frame to generate and when we dump to
tape sometimes our cuts and fades are not exactly what we'd like to see. With
the SP deck we can simply jump back to a particular sequence and dump overtop
of the pervious work. Flics just don't cut it for previews for our work, so it
would seem that a 3000 unit by itself would be a nightmare for us.
However on those jobs that we were confidently dumping final copy the lack of
preroll and postroll would be a gift from the Gods.
Paul
P.S. – We obviously envy your in house equipment options.<g>
Paul:
>> our unorthodox way of dumping to tape
That's why we always save to disk first, look at every 30th frame, then dump
all to laser at once. Since we have a 15 system network to render, with 48
megs on each 486/66, it makes life a little easier! If I want to examine a
transition, I just take that portion out to laser (30 frames), and look at
it! It seems like we use the hard disk like you use the tape, writing over
the frames there, then laying it off to laser at once. Everyone needs to
find out what works best for them based on available equipment!
>> We obviously envy your in house equipment options. <g>
Being in the interesting position of user, authorized developer, and
authorized dealer gets us all sorts of options! But we still fight over
resources here! And as soon as we get to understand a piece of equipment
enough to program for it, the manufacturer takes it away!
In addition to higher overhead, lots of time spent testing and evaluating
H/W and S/W, and figuring out how to integrate it all into a working system!
Never a dull moment!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
I just think that using several SP decks is alot easier than trying to work
with Laserdisks. As you already know, we're running a large Netware 3.11 Lan
(almost 40 systems) so the rendering equipment and hard disk space isn't an
issue.
I guess I've just spent so much time using tape that it is an extremely
comfortable medium. The cost per unit on the media and the lack of user's on
this coast familiar with the Laserdisk also influences us alot.
I can take our SP camera, shoot live footage, use the tape in our editing
environment to overlay animation, and then take the tape to any of our local
televison stations, and pop it into a cart, and TADA we're up and running. Also
if we need to exchange the media with anyone, SP is kinda the standard.
As to using the hard disk to preview a sequence. It just isn't possible for us.
The only way that it would be useful is in a straight cut. If we happen to be
using a long transition or complex trans, the only way to see if you're getting
the desired effect is to see it on tape (i.e.- we need to be able to see the
sequence at 30FPS in full color at 24 bits and Vista res). Also without the
constant need to keep stock footage on hand,(i.e. – we rarely if ever luck into
using the same piece twice), the laserdisk just isn't a justifiable medium to
us or our average clients. We do have some clients who are interested in the
medium for still image storage, scientific apps and interactive training, and I
think that we would probably use one in a similar manner for archiving or
holding stock photos.
Now as I already said, we will be picking one up, because we have a nasty habit
of aquiring equipment and I'm dying to play with one. (We also happen to be
having a great year.) However, I sorta feel that for the average client setting
up a frame accurate environment, the laserdisk is going to leave them in need
of a SP deck.
[>> Continued in next msg]
[>> Continued from previous msg]
If you can convince me otherwise, I'd love to be able to talk the locals into
picking up some of the units so that I would be able to utilize the media. I've
just heard the same arguments regarding the disks for a while now, and they all
seem pretty logical to me.
Paul
P.S. – I know you spend alot of time R&D'ing the H/W that's the reason I'm
picking your brain before I blow another 16-30K. You're obviously a tremendous
source of info. Since we can hardly ever catch up with each other on the phone,
I figured I'd discuss the media with you here and maybe help you generate some
sales.
Paul:
Yes, there are good arguements on both sides! What a great country! <g>
I believe that the best-of-both-worlds solution is to have one of each unit
(laser and BetaSP deck) in house. I've had both at one time or another, but
never overlapping!
With both, I would do all my disk-to-vtr on the laser, and dub it over the
betaSP for editing. With a controller that works both, this would be
extremely simple to do, and gives compatibility with the rest of the world.
One of my hot-buttons is time. To lay off a 1,800 frame animation (a
typical length for a segment here) to tape used to kill me! If you assume
that it takes 3DS three seconds to load up an image to the framebuffer across
the network, including it's overhead, etc., add to that one second to rewind
the tape, five seconds of preroll, two seconds of post-roll, and you are
looking at 11 seconds per frame! Assuming everything is equal, three seconds
to load the image, there is only one second to record onto the laser disk.
Giving the tape the benefit of the doubt, call it 10 seconds vs 4 seconds,
we are talking five hours vs. 2 hours, a significant difference! And no
wear-and-tear on the laser, compared with 5 hours of constant shuttling on
the tape deck! I could lay-off another 1,800 frames and have lunch before
the BetaSP deck is done! And never a dropped frame, either!
And when both are done, one gives you a tape, the other gives you a laser
disk. With no additional equipment, the laser can play forwards, backwards,
faster, or slower, and hold a still frame for as long as you would like,
with a non-linear editing system to boot. With the tape you have, well, a
tape! Which must be searched through, (now, where was that piece?) and
organized to show anyone. With the laser, I just add that piece to my
demo-reel program in the computer and it controls it real-time (or was that
reel-time?), and I can customize it easily to show someone, say, all our
architectural work, or all our character animation.
Have a great holiday!
Greg
Paul,
The SONY laserdisk encoder is licensed from Faroudja and obviously
well-matched to the LVR's capabilities. The Grass Valley CV22 transcoders are
extremely well-respected also, but I've always felt Faroudja was a step above.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin,
We have Faroudja TCG's in our 7750's, but I haven't seen their
encoders. Do you happen to have a model number of their competing unit
for the CV22? We're currently using a CV22 but I'm always interested
in new equipment.
Paul
P.S. – Do you happen to be a dealer for Faroudja?
Paul:
PMJI, but the only Faroudja encoder in my catalog (1992, though) lists at
$9,900!! <g>
Greg
Paul,
As per Greg's reply – I did indicate that Faroudja is high-end! The
Grass Valley CV22 is a transcoder, though – and transcoders cost a heck of a
lot less than NTSC encoders.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin,
I appreciate the input. I'd like to get more info on the Faroudja line. As I
said, I'm only familiar with their 7750 connection. Obviously the Grass Valley
stuff can run into the same dollar figures as Greg was using, this particular
job is just a pretty standard setup. If you are a dealer for Faroudja, what's
the chance of me getting a couple of slicks.
Paul
Greg,
This is the kind of message who really covinces me to buy something. Expect us
to spend our next $15,000 in a laserdisk 🙂
Ana
Ana:
Glad to know Paul's and my discussion made some sense to others! That's
what CI$ is all about!
Greg