#3DS & ATI cards
24 messages in this thread
Umm… I've got a problem.
Now, I know it's hard to diagnose these things without knowing close to
everything about
someone's particular computer (like the AUTOEXEC.BAT, Model number, whether the
person
who built it was left or right handed, etc.) but if what I describe sounds
familiar to
someone, I'd *really* appreciate a word or two of help.
I'm using Autodesk 3DStudio at work on a 486 50Mhz machine with 32Mb of RAM and
(I
suspect this may be part of the problem) an ATI Graphics Ultra Pro Mach32 based
video card with 2Mbs of RAM. I've been going through hell because the machine
keeps
deciding to either hang or turn off and completely reboot while I'm in the
middle of
rendering a scene. It is repeatable and I've been able to defeat it by doing
some obscure
things like hiding an object in the sceneor adjusting the camera angle
slightly.
When I switch over to the rendering screen, my monitor seems to flip through a
half a
dozen video modes (no exageration!) before settling down. Are there other
drivers
than the ones provided by ATI (Vibrant Graphics "Ultracad") or have I just made
some
kind of instalation miscue?
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
Bruce Meikle
1. Reduce your device drivers (if possible).
Don't use ATI's 8514 device driver.
Don't use the VESA driver (unless it's the latest one for the ATI forum)
Don't use the ANSI.SYS driver that comes with DOS
2. Using the ATI install to set the powerup configuration:
Make sure it's correct for your monitor.
Set the aperture at least 2MB higher than your ram.
Set memory to Shared (never use the 8514 driver with this)
3. Make sure the 3ds.set file corresponds to what the README file says.
4. Use a memory manager like QEMM386 and not DOS's.
5. Alternate from 3ds.exe to 3DShell to call up 3DStudio
Good Luck,
DanP
Thanks for your prompt answer!
I'll take a look at your suggestions , but off the top of my head:
>>1. Reduce your device drivers (if possible).
Don't use ATI's 8514 device driver.
Don't use the VESA driver (unless it's the latest one for the ATI forum)
Don't use the ANSI.SYS driver that comes with DOS<<
I don't use either the 8514 or a VESA driver. I use the Ultracad drivers that
come with my ATI card. I'd have to check to see if ANSI.SYS is loaded but I
don't think it is.
>>2. Using the ATI install to set the powerup configuration:
Make sure it's correct for your monitor.
Set the aperture at least 2MB higher than your ram.
Set memory to Shared (never use the 8514 driver with this)<<
I'm as sure as I can be it's right for my monitor. As far as the aperture goes,
it's an ISA system with 32Mb of RAM. I understand that to mean that the memory
aperture *must* be disabled on this system, although I've heard of rumers about
a "virtual memory aperture" setup. Of which I know not of. Memory is set to
shared.
>>3. Make sure the 3ds.set file corresponds to what the README file says.<<
I believe it does.
>>4. Use a memory manager like QEMM386 and not DOS's.<<
Well, that could be something. I am, however, following the advice of the 3DS
installation guide for using HIMEM.SYS and EMM386 with 3DS. Is this hopeless?
>>5. Alternate from 3ds.exe to 3DShell to call up 3DStudio<<
How do you mean "alternate?" I use a batchfile that calls up 3dShell after
issuing all the various SET commands. Am I doing a Bad thing?
Thanks again for taking the time to answer.
Bruce Meikle
HI Bruce, sorry to butt in but
I also wanted to know how to fix this, since it is annoying. I've got a 486-66
w? 16MB RAM, my computer doesn't reboot but it does go through different video
modes until it finally stops in the rendering screen, and after it's done
rendering it will go through a couple more modes to show you the rendered
image.
If you find a solution for this let me know please.
By the way, I have tried all the suggestions that Dan gave and nothing.
Thanks
Alex.
Hi Alex
What video card are you using? I took the advice of every magazine article I
could find and bought an ISA bus ATI Graphics Ultra Pro with 2Mb of RAM. No
one, and I mean *no one*, said a single discouraging word about it in any
review that I could find but when I started having problems and started asking
people about them, dealers would whisper that "Yeah, we stay away from those.
They're buggy. They were released too soon "etc., etc.
I have the exact same model but in Local Bus Version. I guess I'll try Mike's
idea and see what happens.
But other than jumping video modes (ANNOYING, and I don't know whether it's
damaging to my monitor: I have a MAG Innovision 17")
other than that, the card works perfectly.
Let me know…
Alex
Alex:
I've posted messages to the ATI Support forum about this problem and I'll let
you know what I can find out. I *would* like to know what's going on with the
jumping video modes.
Lettin' ya know
Bruce
Bruce:
I use the ATI GU Plus (mach32, 2megs DRAM) on a 486/66 ISA board with the
Vibrant driver for 3DS > no problems at all.
Some thoughts:
– vga memory set to 'shared' is ok. – make sure that you really run the batch
file with the SET's for DSPADI,
RCPADI, … and VIBCFG. Check this while in DOS before you execute 3DS. – you
need to set 'VVESA OFF' in the start batch if you use the VESA driver
in DOS, otherwise…: crash… – you may need to install the driver again:
delete the 'adi3ds.cfg' for
that. Boot your system from a boot diskette with 'nearly blank'
autoexec.bat & config.sys. If this works, add device drivers one by one to
see possible conflicts. – The flickering screen is normal. The board needs to
switch resolutions.
Maybe this helps…… let me know. Alexander.
I think Mike Kelley's suggestion is a good one. Try turning off shadowing of
the video bios in CMOS. (c000-c7ff). An ATI tech told me they used a 64K ROM
that bank selected itself in the 32K address space. Some newer CMOS setups
allow you to describe how this area is shadowed but most don't. Since you're
using DOS's memory manager, I've heard others on this forum state that the DOS
6 EMM386 wasn't compatible with 3DS's DOS Extender. Whatever you use, be sure
the entire video range is excluded from the memory manager: X=A000-C7FF. Also,
make sure there is no other address conflict, i.e. another board that needs its
address space excluded as well. Lastly, the ATI board uses the address space
normally used by COM4.
Good luck again,
DanP
Thanks for the info! It's nice to have at least an inkling of what's going on.
I'll be back tinkering at the machine Monday, so we'll see.
>>I've heard others on this forum state that the DOS 6 EMM386 wasn't compatible
with 3DS's DOS Extender. <<
We're still using DOS 5 at work but this will affect me at home. I'm using DOS
6 and am waiting for my dealer to deliver my own personal copy of 3DS. Oh,
well. Back to multiple setups again <sigh>.
Bruce
Thanks again. After fiddling with the blasted machine for 5 or 6 hours, I seem
to have got it semi-stable, thanks to your advice and to some experimenting on
my own. I'm not yet convinced it's fixed but we'll see. Perhaps sacrificing a
dozen slide rules on a sacred bonfire would help…<g>
Bruce
>because the machine keeps
>deciding to either hang or turn off and completely reboot while I'm in the
middle of
>rendering a scene
Forgive me for jumping in here, but I had a similar problem on my 50Mz, 32Meg
machine that was not solved until I turned off the Shadow RAM in my BIOS
setup (on a hunch of a thread I read in the Ani Pro forum). After that — no
more
problems.
My symptoms were exactly yours, and I tried ALL the suggestions of the gurus
around here, and this one worked perfectly the first time I've tried it. It's
worth a few minutes to give it a shot. If that's not it — sorry.
Great Mike, thank yopu very much, i'll try it and I'll let you know.
Alex.
Mike:
Sounds like a good tip! We have one other system at work that has the same
video card and it was acting up with AutoCAD. Seems to me we had to disable the
Shadow RAM on it and it's been stable since. I, Ummm….forgot about that one
<sheepish smile>.
I'll try it out when I get back to work on Monday.
Thanks!
Bruce
I was excited by your idea up until I got into my CMOS at work and discovered
that it was already disabled <sigh>. But Dan Pinal gave me some additional
hints along the same line and, after spending 3/4s of the day fiddling with the
thing, I managed to get it semi-stable. It still occasionally and alarmingly
blacked out for a split second while using the program.
Thanks for your kind help.
Bruce
I have not seen a problem with ATI cards and 3ds, but I can tell you for
certain there is a problem with it and several other programs. In
Autocad/Arcad, the driver use a command called 'clean', which is also a vital
command in Arcad. the program is hobbled without it, but the ATI driver
overrides it. We found this one out the hard way and returned it. It also has a
problem with it's windows driver and high performance programs. I use one
called MIPS, and image processing program that had a tendency to lock up a lot
and it turned out to be the driver for the ATI.
we got rid of the one we had and no longer recommend it to clients. We have
several Number 9 GXE's now we are very happy with.
If I remeber correctly, it also had a problem using the full amount of ram on
the card if you had more than 16 megs in your machine, but they may have fixed
this by now.
Tim
We've had problems with AutoCAD as well. As far as as the "clean" function
goes, we've told people to issue the occasional regen command (always a popular
suggestion on large dwgs <g>)
which I suspect includes a clean routine. As far as the RAM goes, as I
understand it, it's not that your machine can't use all of it, it's the memory
aperture feature of the graphics card that has to be disabled in ISA systems
with 16Mb or more becase 16's the limit an ISA I/O bus can handle.
How do the Number 9 GXEs compare in price to the ATI cards? I may have some
influence in buying hardware for our firm but someone else holds the purse <g>.
Well, I've had the problem of the machine changing SEVERAL video modes upon
rendering and doing again after…using my VLB mach 32 card…annoying to say
the least! The other problem I'm having is with colors on the 3d
editor/shaper/lofter screens…like creating lines and holding the mouse button
to get your direction arrows and the two arrows are supposed to be two
different colors like red and yellow…well mine aren't! Any suggestions? I
believe once upon a time we tried using the standard vga driver or something in
the 3ds set file, but that was a long time ago…if memory serves, colors were
right, but when we went to render, it changed video modes a couple of times,
and went right back to the 3d editor screen…ideas?
thanks
Mark
The colors in the Editor/Shaper screens aren't being displayed because you're
not using the VGA driver, or you're not using an ADI driver that supports those
colors. Both Vibrant and Panacea have drivers now that support that stuff.
– G
I haven't had the problem with colours that you've had on your system. Sorry
I'm no help in ideas on that one, either. I am in the midst of pestering ATI
support on the problem of rapid change video modes and will let you know if
they tell me something usefull.
Bruce
So far they have been rock solid. I believe they are a little more expensive,
but the time weve saved in not hassling with them I believe makes up for
whatever minimal cost they are extra
Bruce,
In reference to the 'clean' command and Arcad, you might want to check which
version of the Vibrant driver you are using.
We disabled our 'clean' command (alias for garbage cleanup) in 2.1 revision 4
when we realized the conflict we were having with other third party
applications.
This newer (clean-free) version is the same one that comes with the Number Nine
GXE and that Tim seems to have no problem with.
E-Mail me your address, etc.. and I will see that you get a copy of the latest
ATI build.
I've had no "clean" problems using the ATI GUP and the Vibrant SoftEngine ACAD
drivers.
Dave
you will only experience the 'clean' problem if you are running ARCAD.