#Watcom 10.0 ?
16 messages in this thread
Just got a fax back from Watcom afer inquiring about 9.5 version compiler.
They mentioned the 10.0 version as the latest release.
Will Watcom 10.0 work as well with 3DS 3.0 or should I stick with the 9.5
version mentioned in the 3DS manuals?
Ken,
<< Will Watcom 10.0 work as well with 3DS 3.0 or should I stick with the 9.5
version mentioned in the 3DS manuals? >>
In terms of support, Autodesk Multi Media Product Support will only support the
listed compilers. This is because only these compilers have gone through our QA
cycle.
However, I think Gus mentioned 10.0 recently but I don't know if he uses it
with any Autodesk software developer kits or has found any problems with it.
jonas[adesk]
>> However, I think Gus mentioned 10.0 recently but I don't know if he
>> uses it …
Somebody else mentioned. I just basically made the exact same comment. I did
not upgrade because I saw no reason for it. Nop. I do not use Watcom for any
Adesk development.
On the other hand, if he already has Watcom 10.0, just try it and see what
happens. If he doesn't consider Metaware.
Jonas,
You wrote:
>In terms of support, Autodesk Multi Media Product Support will only support
the >listed compilers. This is because only these compilers have gone through
our QA >cycle.
Can you give me an update on the .TRP development for WATCOM 9.5 issue?
Last time you and talked it was under consideration. Christopher Allis also
was very helpful in bringing this issue to a decision point. Has a decision
been reached? If so, let me know.
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Stephen,
<< Has a decision been reached? >>
I can say that Autodesk spoke with Watcom and reviewed the legal issues
regarding releasing the .TRP internals to us. In terms of future availability,
Autodesk does not discuss future products, shipdates or features. 🙁 Sorry.
jonas[adesk]
Jonas,
(in regards to the trap files needed to use Watcom Video Debugger for 9.5:)
you wrote:
>I can say that Autodesk spoke with Watcom and reviewed the legal issues
>regarding releasing the .TRP internals to us. In terms of future availability,
>Autodesk does not discuss future products, shipdates or features. 🙁 Sorry.
I'm disappointed, but I certainly understand. We also looked at TRP SDK and
decided that we didn't want to write the .TRP either.
I think that we will be porting to Metaware for our product release at SIGGRAPH
94.
You've been a great help to us, Jonas, in the effort to keep this project
moving forward….looks like forward to Metaware.
Hope to have the opportunity to shake you hand at SIGGRAPH 94….
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Wait a minute here. I started this thread to gain some recommendations about
Watcom.
Now I see a hint of a trend implying some need to vacate Watcom and move over
to MetaWare.
Does this imply that the Metaware compiler has some advantage not present in
Watcom 9.5 but present in Watcom 10.0 but not blessed by Autodesk.
Why are you moving to MetaWare? What is the critical issue?
I am new to Autodesk, having just got the SDKs, and have not yet done any
programming or analysis of Autodesk vis-a-vis Watcom / Metaware.
Ken,
<< Wait a minute here. I started this thread to gain some recommendations
about Watcom.Now I see a hint of a trend implying some need to vacate Watcom
and move over to MetaWare. >>
It all comes down to the debug environment. I cannot debug with printf's.. but
some can. When debugging IPAS, I need a robust debugger. Metaware's debugger
and Phar Lap's debugger both allow me to see my source code, call stack, watch
memory locations, walk pointer chains (metaware's only), view the 386
registers, display structures, single step and set breakpoints all in a
monochrome monitor while the graphics operations are being displayed on the
color monitor displaying 3ds.
This is why many move to the metaware platform. There are programmers who can
work without a debugger and implement IPAS but I'm not one of them.
jonas[adesk]
Ken,
>>Why are you moving to MetaWare? What is the critical issue?
The critical issue is that you cannot use the Watcom Video Debugger from 9.5.
And with regards to 10, even though the debugger is significantly different,
you can't use it either.
The issue is, that a trap file has to provided or written for the environment
inwhich the debugger will operate. There are many trap files available for
many environments, even Autodesk ADI development. But none for IPAS. Since
IPASs have their own code segment and data segment, and acts as a client to the
3DS program, special trap files need to be written to debug in this
environment.
Watcom support tells us that it may be that more than one trap file will be
needed, they don't see that one would fit all the situations that the different
types of IPASs would require.
Autodesk was very responsive regarding our request, but the fact is that
debugging is not currently an option with Watcom for IPAS development.
So, why Metaware?
During our research on the above it came to our attention that the vast
majority of serious IPAS development was Metaware based. I hesitate to speak
for others, but in the form of hearsay, let me say: It appears that Yost is
primarily Metaware, Pyros I'm told is Metaware, I know David at Digimation is
Metaware….its' a well know truth that the product that gets used the most
gets supported the most. So, we switched.
We may see traps for Watcom someday, but not before SIGGRAPH 94…
BTW Check out our new IPAS offering, see IPAS Usage, and IPAS Usage Library
for info about Exponential Key Generator KXP…
Hope this was helpful…
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813–977-8414
70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net
Thanks for the feedback. Now one other issue to reveal my ignorance
on DPMI/VCPI etc. After installing 3DS I notice that the
HIMEM/EMM386 modules support operation of 3DS and that the
installation did not "add" any Phar Lap modules to the boot files.
When 3DS is running under HIMEM/EMM386, does it also invoke or
implement operation of any PharLap modules in the main program
directory. I.E. if I write an IPAS module, can I safely expect to
NOT HAVE TO DISTRIBUTE any run-time PharLap modules subject to
royalty. I am totally confused as to the use of PharLap with
MetaWare. Is it only to get linkage to PharLap library objects which
implement the DPMI/VCPI client, and then expect that at run-time
HIMEM/EMM386 can provide the server. Do I need a PharLap extender
(server) with my IPAS, and is the PharLap server already present
within the basic 3DS installation?
Ken,
<< I.E. if I write an IPAS module, can I safely expect to NOT HAVE TO
DISTRIBUTE any run-time PharLap modules subject to royalty. >>
True.. You will not have to pay royalties.
<<..and is the PharLap server already present within the basic 3DS
installation? >>
The Phar Lap run time stub is built into 3ds. Note the use of cfig386.exe on
pg. 108 of the R3 installation manual.
is the "stub" you mention the file pharlap.386 or is that file some other part.
I'm trying to understand client, server, manager, etc. components of the
architecure and run-time operation.
The PharLap "DOS Extender" is what you cannot distribute unless you
pay royalties. That thing is a 250+k clunk of code that gets "bound"
to the application. IPAS do not get bound to the extender as they run
as child processes of 3D Studio which _is_ bound to the DOS Extender.
Think of PharLap as a Protected Mode -> Real Mode -> Protected Mode
bridge. It's not much more than that. The bulk of the code is in
supporting almost all kinds of system calls (you are now making int
21h's in protected mode and DOS down below doesn't even know what
that means).
"is the "stub" you mention the file pharlap.386"
Phar Lap is code built in to 3DS. You don't see it. IPAS routines
require 3DS because they're compiled to run as 386 apps, so as long
as you're running 3DS you get your Phar Lap environment & you're
fine.
The pharlap.386 file relates to Windows (check out the manual on this
one) and is set up as a DEVICE=pharlap.386 line in the SYSTEM.INI.
Ken,
>>Why are you moving to MetaWare? What is the critical issue? <<
The critical issue for me was not being able to use the Watcom Video Debugger
in 9.5. The debugger requires a trap file for various environments. The files
are available for ADI development, and many others, but not for IPAS.
Our research on the .TRP issue led to the conclusion that one trap file would
not surfice for all IPASs.
Ken,
I think it is significant to point out that until Autodesk or Watcom write the
required .TRP files for Watcom you will not be able to debug your IPAS with the
Watcom debugger.
There is a significant difference between the debugger on 9.5 (Video) and the
new one on 10. Though Watcom says that the startup isn't all that different.
Steve
Stephen D. Pidgeon
Pulse Productions
Tampa, FL
813-977-8414
70732,2546
pidgeon@gate.net