CompuServe Thread

FRAMSCAL

25 messages in this thread
#112586From: Ed KellermanJul 13, 1994 2:33 AM
I have found FRAMSCAL to be the POCO program I use the most! Thanks! Ed K ————————– Should you want to enhance it. The capability to scale by a fraction could be useful. That is, capabilty to delete or duplicate every n-th frame. I occassionaly need to specify where to start deleting (when cutting the no of frames in half, for example, I could delete either the odd or the even frames.) I wouldn't want the interface used for the majority of cases to become more complicated though. Something like adding a third option, "Advanced," to the existing choices would be good.
#112963From: dave aguilarJul 14, 1994 6:56 PM
/* I have found FRAMSCAL to be the POCO program I use the most! Thanks! */ Hi Ed! Thank you. Kind words for which I am grateful. I never know if what I upload is of any benefit to others… only around here (my office). 🙂 I have a whole bunch of other POCOs I had planned on uploading, but response was kinda low and downloads weren't to intense so I figured it wasn't of much value. /* Should you want to enhance it. The capability to scale by a fraction could be useful. That is, capabilty to delete or duplicate every n-th frame. I occassionaly need to specify where to start deleting (when cutting the no of frames in half, for example, I could delete either the odd or the even frames.) I wouldn't want the interface used for the majority of cases to become more complicated though. Something like adding a third option, "Advanced," to the existing choices would be good. */ Great suggestions… I can see how we would benefit from these types of enhancements too. Biggest hurdle… getting a new version uploaded here to overwrite the older version so that we don't go through that whole mess of multiple versions available again. 🙂 -dave
#112969From: Ed KellermanJul 14, 1994 8:13 PM
< response was kinda low > Many users of this forum work under deadlines and intense pressure. Look at the number of messages posted after midnight. Responses are hard to get. I remember that I almost stopped uploading after only hearing from two people during my first six months. <downloads weren't too intense so I figured it wasn't of much value.> FRAMSCALE has been downloaded 58 times. Anything over 50 dealing with Animator is a hit (It took 5.5 months before anything I submitted had been downloaded 50 times.) And, there is something strange, which maybe someone can explain. A couple of months ago someone uploaded some of my stuff on America-on-Line, including one of my flops: Space Web #1. When I checked America-on-Line about a month ago, Space Web #1, had been downloaded over 50 times, It had only been donwload 12 times here (17 now), where it had been available longer. Why? Anyhow, I couldn't have known someone was going to upload my stuff on AOL, or that flics that weren't of much interest here would be hits there. And, then there's Melenhorst's great HERBIE.ZIP, a hit if I ever saw one! In spite of rave reviews, including one from Gary Yost, it hasn't even been downloaded 100 times. So, stop being selfish and upload more! <Biggest hurdle… getting a new version uploaded here to overwrite the older version> Doesn't that happen automatically if you use the same file name? (I remember the problems you had with Mark Schneider, but I never new why. I thought it had to do with files moved around to create the new libraries) Ed K
#113037From: Nik Grant [adesk]Jul 15, 1994 7:49 AM
"<Biggest hurdle… getting a new version uploaded here to overwrite the older version> Doesn't that happen automatically if you use the same file name?" Alas, no. It's possible to search and see two files with identical names. Other BBS's are (or can be) the same way.
#113045From: David RhotenJul 15, 1994 9:13 AM
Nik: I thought that as long as you uploaded the file with the same name, and using the same account id, the second file would overwrite the first. Are you saying that this doesn't always work? Dave
#113090From: Ed KellermanJul 15, 1994 2:09 PM
<Alas, no. It's possible to search and see two files with identical names. Other BBS's are (or can be) the same way. > About a year ago I didn't now that file names were truncated to 6 characters. Once I accidentally replaced a file I had uploaded earlier because I used a file name that was the same as an older update when truncated from 8 to 6 characters. Are you saying this wouldn't happen now? Ed K
#113109From: nelson, george pJul 15, 1994 4:19 PM
Ed, PMJI, but something you said really hit a nerve: > FRAMSCALE has been downloaded 58 times. Anything over 50 dealing with > Animator is a hit (It took 5.5 months before anything I submitted had been > downloaded 50 times.) Do you have any idea why this (the low number of downloads) is true? I've always been surprised that so few POCO programs are uploaded, I'd have thought (actually did think when I first got AniPro) that it would turn out to be more popular than AutoLisp was with AutoCad since it appeared to be more powerful as well as being more closer to a mainstream language. Without telling too many tales out of school, I've done some simulations of full miltary systems (which I can't upload for obvious reasons) which could not have been done any other way. However, I have uploaded some stuff when I can, and checked the library for download counts before writing this. Some of the things I put up a couple of years ago are nearing 450 downloads, which using your 50 criteria, would mean I'm almost going "platinum" <G>. It's also curious that I've never had ANY feedback from anything that I put up. I guess that means it was bug free, or so bad that it never worked at all, or (even worse) completely useless. But, in any event, I'll keep trying. George Nelson
#113262From: Ed KellermanJul 16, 1994 6:07 PM
<Do you have any idea why this (the low number of downloads) is true? I've always been surprised that so few POCO programs are uploaded> My thought is that many users of this forum are in a business that puts them under a lot of pressure. When they need something, I've noticed that often they opt for purchasing, rather than spending the time to do it themselves. Until you have spent a lot of time with Animator, it is not easy to predict how long it would take to do something, an uncertainty that's unacceptable in this business. I think this is the main reason the program, and related material is in low demand. < Some of the things I put up a couple of years ago are nearing 450 downloads, which using your 50 criteria, would mean I'm almost going "platinum" <G>> I would say so!! And you do have a reputation. When Nik made a comment about you, a couple of days ago, I downloaded your latest (text with shadows). I was surprised at the number times it had been downloaded already. It looks that you'll have 50 downloads on that one in no time. I also assume there must be a lot of interest in doing animated text with Animator, something I wasn't aware of. < It's also curious that I've never had ANY feedback from anything that I put up. I guess that means it was bug free, or so bad that it never worked at all, or (even worse) completely useless. But, in any event, I'll keep trying.> I found that very surprising (in my case) also, that's why I was telling Dave not to let feedback be an indicator of value. And you can't blindly use the number of times something has been downloaded as an indicator of its value, since that mainly reflects how well you advertised it (in the description). What I do, is download something on a similar subject later (if they didn't like the first one, they won't download another one). Based on the number of times your last contribution has been downloaded I would say that no one thinks your previous work has been "completely useless!" There is your real feedback! Ed K
#113266From: Jeff L. BlackwellJul 16, 1994 7:08 PM
I think Ed is right. Many of us use AniPro strictly as a tool for creating business stuff. We need to accomplish a specific task, usually in less time than we would like. It's the best 8-bit paint program I've ever seen. Most of our work involves "demo" disks, so big ol' .flc files are out of the question. We create single .gifs, which I often dither down to 16 colors. But… I am really glad that all you guys are out here pushin' the envelope with AniPro. Just do it… it's art. Thanks. Jeff Blackwell Envision, Inc.
#113300From: nelson, george pJul 17, 1994 6:09 AM
Ed, > … I also assume there must be a lot of interest in doing animated > text with Animator, something I wasn't aware of. I suspect that there are a lot of presentations done with Animator, maybe even its main professional use. I know that's becoming more true in my case, almost via a back door route. We originally got it to supplement 3D Studio. But once you had a flic from 3DS, you needed charts to introduce & explain it, for which Animator was the logical tool since you already had to face up to the complications of having to handle flics/video. When we got Animator Pro, we also discovered POCO inside of Animator, which for us offered huge possibilities, so it became more than just a supplemental tool in its own right. But then we were generating even more flics that required introductions, explanations, etc. which means more basic chart work. Then management comes along, likes what it sees (to the point where we bought a dedicated system with one of those expensive 37" monitors for our conference room), and we end up doing a whole lot more presentation only type material than I would have imagined. To make a long story short, the tail is now wagging the dog, and 3D Studio has actually become for us, a supplement to Animator. My hunch as to why my stuff has had a fairly high download count is that they are basically tools to ease some of the drudge work that one runs into in putting together a presentation. > … Until you have spent a lot of time with Animator, it is not easy > to predict how long it would take to do something, an uncertainty > that's unacceptable in this business. I think this is the main reason > the program, and related material is in low demand. It strikes me that all of Autodesk's products have a couple of things in common that affect demand: (I'm basing this on the 3 I use; Autocad, 3DS, & AnimatorPro) Relatively high price and EXTREMELY stiff learning curves. The learning curve in particular is a problem. I know that for myself, if my employer didn't let me take a machine equal to my office machine home where I can just play with (play here is synonomous with learn!) the program, you never will really find out just what you can do with it and how it can help you. My own feeling is that it took me about 6 mos. to truly get up to speed with each of the program's I mentioned. There aren't many business situations which will knowingly allow several months of charging overhead to get somebody "up to speed" with a new tool. Animator has an additional handicap because it's not intuitively obivious what its intrinsic worth/purpose really is. What I mean here is that it's not doing something that you're already doing, only faster and better, rather it does something that you don't realize you want done. Perhaps with all the multi-media hype floating around, that will change. – – – George.
#113331From: dave aguilarJul 17, 1994 4:44 PM
Great assessment, George. /* I suspect that there are a lot of presentations done with Animator, maybe even its main professional use. I know that's becoming more true in my case, */ Same here. Having done my share of Powerpuff's, there's just no comparison to the reaction you get with "animated slides". The impact is so strong that the presenter winds up competing for attention with even the simplest of animations. In the courses I teach on ANI, we focus on how little of the screen it takes for actual animation to make an impact too. There's a supplied FLC file which shows a station with a water fountain infront of it, water gushing away… very typical of the percentage of screen needed to get the point across emotionally. Using 3DS in sync with ANI to make these animated slides has been even more impressionable. We had the last audience hooked with the water-map (loaded here as H2OBMP.ZIP) for general ocean, lake and pool scenes… took all of about 15 minutes to create, very quick in 3DS to render, and damn realistic for our water needs. Dynamic slides make for dynamic presentations. /* When we got Animator Pro, we also discovered POCO inside of Animator, which for us offered huge possibilities, so it became more than just a supplemental tool in its own right. But then we were generating even more */ Absolutely, same here. In fact, POCO is so powerful that we've created Windowsy interfaces with it to view flics and stills… where the cursor actually impresses buttons and so forth. Entire map-guide systems have been created for convention halls and so forth, and no one even knows ANI is the engine behind it! 🙂 /* only type material than I would have imagined. To make a long story short, the tail is now wagging the dog, and 3D Studio has actually become for us, a supplement to Animator. */ I'd say about 33% of our work is similar… 3DS supplements ANI. But the power we gain from both working together is awesome. For 3DS, ANI is incredible at generating animated maps (not just for textures, but for any of the map types… Opacity, Shininess, etc.)… and ANI really brings out the power of 3DS by cutting back rendering time. We created an elaborate checkboard.. I mean ELABORATE… gold trimmings on squares, two types of wood inset, varying degrees of shininess, and if you saw the geometry, it's a single box! The rest is about 7 maps (bump, etc.). Rendering time was blazing. Obviously for ANI, 3DS makes 3D presentations a snap. But we really focus on rendering reductions. For example, we had a situation where an object needed to horizontally cross infront of a marble wall and cast shadow as it did. Rather than create a marble wall in 3DS and render shadows, we rendered only the object, rendered the wall on frame, then brought both into ANI and using DARK ink pasted the shadow in 1% of the time. Tremendous power depending on the task. Doesn't pump us, it pumps the capabilities of hybrid usage. /* you. My own feeling is that it took me about 6 mos. to truly get up to speed with each of the program's I mentioned. There aren't many business situations which will knowingly allow several months of charging overhead to get somebody "up to speed" with a new tool. */ But then again, look at what you're achieving. We're not talking spreadsheets here. 🙂 It would be insane for management to think that generating an elaborate animation would take the same amount of mindshare as, say, writing a letter in a word processor. I've always (since CADD days) had to educate management into realistic time/money/effort needs. /* Animator has an additional handicap because it's not intuitively obivious what its intrinsic worth/purpose really is. What I mean here is that it's not doing something that you're already doing, only faster and better, rather it does something that you don't realize you want done. Perhaps with all the multi-media hype floating around, that will change. */ I agree. 3DS and AutoCAD (as examples) make their effective usage far easierto understand in less time than a product like Animator. But a lot of this depends on how the product is presented. When I train on 3DS, ANI sits beside it from day one. When we hit the Materials Editor, 50% of the training is on map generation in ANI. Only then do the map slider bars come alive in 3DS. Granted 3DS has capacity to generate maps, but nowhere near as fast. And we find that most maps are 2D anyway, and unencumbered by any lighting consideration, ANI fakes lighting effects much faster for most map crsations. It also alerts the user to the vast amount of non-3DS resources which can be applied as maps to 3DS. (extreme example: even Paintbrush in standard Windows can make great maps). But for animated maps… lava, rain, water, smoke, fire… it's hard to beat. -dave
#113246From: dave aguilarJul 16, 1994 3:40 PM
/* remember that I almost stopped uploading after only hearing from two people during my first six months. */ That IS surprising, considering the quality of samples you upload, Ed. /* FRAMSCALE has been downloaded 58 times. Anything over 50 dealing with Animator is a hit (It took 5.5 months before anything I submitted had been downloaded 50 times.) */ Really? See, I'm used to seeing files downloaded in the hundreds over in ACAD forum… this is new for me. If 50 is good, maybe I should upload some other stuff. /* And, there is something strange, which maybe someone can explain. A couple of months ago someone uploaded some of my stuff on America-on-Line, including one */ Hmmmm. I wonder if the government is using it to protect the country now too! 🙂 No telling where some of this stuff winds up. /* Anyhow, I couldn't have known someone was going to upload my stuff on AOL, or that flics that weren't of much interest here would be hits there. */ Wow. I've tapped into America Onhold and didn't realize there was heavy 3DS ANI activity there. /* And, then there's Melenhorst's great HERBIE.ZIP, a hit if I ever saw one! In spite of rave reviews, including one from Gary Yost, it hasn't even been downloaded 100 times. */ I've seen the traffic on this, but haven't downloaded it myself yet. /* So, stop being selfish and upload more! */ Okay! Okay! 🙂 Thanks for the encouragement. /* Doesn't that happen automatically if you use the same file name? */ I thought so, but either I goofed on the upload, or something got confused on the file end… whatever it was, it was a mess for a few weeks and I received a few messages from downloaders asking what the heck was going on. -dave
#113263From: Ed KellermanJul 16, 1994 6:11 PM
<I thought so, but either I goofed on the upload, or something got confused on the file end… whatever it was, it was a mess for a few weeks and I received a few messages from downloaders asking what the heck was going on. -dave> Where there 2 files with the same name in the same library? Ed K
#113290From: dave aguilarJul 16, 1994 10:40 PM
/* the file end… whatever it was, it was a mess for a few weeks and I received a few messages from downloaders asking what the heck was going on. -dave> Where there 2 files with the same name in the same library? */ You got it. Same name, and two separate files. There was no way for me to delete an earlier file while uploading the new one. I'm waiting on Nik to let me know how best to "upgrade" an existing file. -dave
#113297From: Jonas Ruikis [ADESK]Jul 17, 1994 3:38 AM
Dave, << There was no way for me to delete an earlier file while uploading the new one.. >> If you own the earlier file *you* can delete it yourself from the libs.
#113332From: dave aguilarJul 17, 1994 4:44 PM
/* << There was no way for me to delete an earlier file while uploading the new one.. >> If you own the earlier file *you* can delete it yourself from the libs. */ So rather than just uploading the new file of same name, I delete the existing file and then upload the new one? Does the new one immediately become available or do you guys need to "process it" like any other new file upload? -dave
#113349From: Jonas Ruikis [ADESK]Jul 17, 1994 8:18 PM
dave, << Does the new one immediately become available or do you guys need to "process it" like any other new file upload? >> We still have to review it. We have to verify that you really uploaded what you intended to upload, that it works as you described and the description and key words still make sense.. jonas[adesk]
#113422From: dave aguilarJul 18, 1994 10:47 AM
/* We still have to review it. We have to verify that you really uploaded what you intended to upload, that it works as you described and the description and key words still make sense.. */ Okay. Got another question for you. If NAAUG were to request a thread manager for section 14 (which they have), would this person be able to do file maintenance in library 14? Reason: many old files in there (ACAD forum), constant updating, etc. -dave
#113430From: Jonas Ruikis [ADESK]Jul 18, 1994 11:10 AM
Dave, << would this person be able to do file maintenance in library 14? Reason: many old files in there (ACAD forum), constant updating, etc. >> I would think so but the final word would come from Bob Henderson. jonas[adesk]
#112971From: Mark YankeeJul 14, 1994 8:26 PM
<< I have a whole bunch of other POCOs >> Please do upload all of these I aggree with Ed about how nice it is and I would like to see more of your great poco programs. Thanks, Mark Yankee
#113247From: dave aguilarJul 16, 1994 3:40 PM
/* Please do upload all of these I aggree with Ed about how nice it is and I would like to see more of your great poco programs. */ Well, if I upload these one at a time, would you be willing to make suggestions on their improvements? To me that's the benefit of sharing this kind of stuff… when someone else can put them to good use, and I in turn can see where the routine can be improved by "outside perspective". p.s. have you checkedout CELSPRAY and FRAMSCAL? -dave
#113318From: Mark YankeeJul 17, 1994 1:25 PM
<< would you be willing to make suggestions on their improvements >> Sure no problem. << CELSPRAY and FRAMSCAL >> Yes, I have downloaded these. Framscal is very handy and celspray could be a little faster when you paste the cel on multiple frames is that possible? Mark Yankee
#113333From: dave aguilarJul 17, 1994 4:44 PM
/* Yes, I have downloaded these. Framscal is very handy and celspray could be a little faster when you paste the cel on multiple frames is that possible? */ I'm sure it is. If you've programmed before, you know that usually capability is achieved before optimization of the algorithms. Admittedly, I, Mark and Greg have been too focused on productivity to go back and re-evaluate our routines for speed. -dave
#113858From: Michael D'AngeloJul 20, 1994 7:19 PM
G'day Ed, Do you know of any way to get an accurate measure of a flic file in minutes and seconds (like you get if you use the Media Player for Flics in Windows.) I have the animation developers kits and POCO books but I cannot seem to find a way to do it. Any ideas?!?!? (I am sure I am just stoopid)
#113867From: Ed KellermanJul 20, 1994 8:23 PM
<Do you know of any way to get an accurate measure of a flic file in minutes and seconds (like you get if you use the Media Player for Flics in Windows.)> In theory, the time between frames in seconds, can be computed by multiplying the number of jiffies by 1/70. The "speed" in jiffies is displayed on the frames panel. This is only in theory, speed may vary from PC to PC. You can use "SetSpeed," in POCO, to set the speed in finer increments (by specifying milliseconds between frames instead of jiffies). Since I am not familiar with the media player, I don't know if I've answered your question. Let me know. Ed K