#Terrain Module
30 messages in this thread
I'm considering getting SILVER. (I'm the guy w/ a new Sculpt problem every
week). 1) What is the terrain module? 2) Can SILVER generate "Photo" quality
interlaced, hires pictures the way
Sculpt can? 3) I have one meg — is that sufficient to
ray trace and/or animate some neato stuff? 4) Are there any other notable
differences
between sculpt 3d and SILVER which would
annoy me or convince me to buy SILVER? thanx. Jason.
Jason, Tsk …… Tsk……. Shame on you!!!! The differences between SC3D
and TSilver are most notable. You will find that the quality of output is
magnitudes better in quality than SC3D, In addition to generation times which
are MUCH MUCH MUCH faster. When you call our support line, there is someone
there to answer your questions instead of asking you for your credit card
number. You can even send us your old decrepid copy of SC3d or Sculpt Animate
(Original Disk and Manual) and get TSilver for $99 saving you a hundred bucks.
TSilver has added features like IFF mapping of pictures around object or groups
of objects, REAL GLASS with TRUE refraction, and much much more. Syndesis also
markets a Turbo Silver conversion module, so you can save all those neat
objects you have created in Sculpt, and convert then to TSilver.
The Terrain module is the first in a series. It allows you to create landscape
scenes like mountains, valleys, and water with moving waves. (you may have seen
the Teapot animation I did for Siggraph.. It's in the dl's here or in the
Vendor section.) All in all I think you will find Turbo Silver a superior
product. OUr next revision due in about 2 weeks, will add multiple light
sources, (up to 32000) enhanced animation capabilities, and much much more.
This upgrade will again be at NO COST to registered users who return their
original disk. There will also be a version of the program designed for
68020/30 68881/882 turbo boards on the disk at NO ADDITIONAL COST. If you have
any other questions, please feel free to give us a call at: 800-328-0184. We
are there from 9:30am to 4:30pm CST.
Stan Kalisher (Impulse)
thanx for the info on TSilver. I can't trade in my Sculpt disk — I have
too much invested in it. $199 is a little steep right now. I wish I could
see some demos of that iff mapping. Does TSIlver use tri-view windows for
construction? I'll d/l the teapot demo. Jason.
If you would like, your could send or beam (modem) an object or two that
you have created in SC3D and we can render it for you in our system. We
have some machines with 030's and 882's so it shouldn't take TOO long. We
opted against the Tri-View appproach as the Amiga re-draw is way too slow
so we give you each view on a full screen. We have made many converts from
SC3D to sculpt, and I would guess about 40% or so of the folks who switched
to TSilver still prefer SC3D to create their objects and then interchange
them over to TSilver. THe only drawback, is the TSilver editor and system
can handle much much larger objects than SC3D.
Stan Kalisher (Impulse)
Let's for once be honest Stan. You opted to not use the tri-view approach
because it was too much work. Refreshing the Sculpt triview is no slower
than refreshing your one view. Actually the Sculpt approach is much
quicker since you can resume working once one triview window has
refreshed. The only limit to the complexity of the object that can be
created is the amount of RAM in your system. Other than that Sculpt has no
limits in complexity of objects. If your editor is so good, then why was
Sculpt used to created your own Silver logo. Regarding the quality of your
renderings – The colors appear brighter since you use less dithering – note
the color banding in your images. Sculpt allows you to set the dithering
level if one desires so. As to speed, blacking of the screen in Sculpt
significantly increases our rendering speed. We made the decision to show
the raytracing because it gives the user feed back as to whether the image
is what they desired. In a production environment one frequently finds
that the ability to abort the ray trace is very helpful. Speaking of
production environments, 99% of professional who have used both Sculpt and
Turbo Silver overwhelmingly prefer Sculpt-Animate because they can count on
their results. The have stated that Turbo Silver can create some
interesting random results, but they are just that random!
Rather than continuously slam Sculpt 3-D and/or Animate 3D, you should be
thankful that they exist. Our research shows that of those who do actively
use Silver, they use it as a peripheral tool to Sculpt. Bite not the hand
that feeds you.
For those of you that are interested, Sculpt-Animate 4D which ships
9/15/88, slam dunks Turbo Silver.
Any comments from professional users who are not paid artists for Impulse.
Greg T. and Louis M., admittedly outstanding artists, should qualify their
opinions regarding the relative merits of Silver. They are paid
contractors for Impulse.
Good day, Stan.
Steve; It seems obvious that you know as little about your product, (I
assume you are associated with Byte by Byte as you refer to the SC Animate
as ours) as you do about Turbo Silver or rendering products in general.
There is no more work in producing the Tri-View window than 3 singles, but
trying to work on one view, while the others are updating chews up so much
chip ram, that working efficiently is poor at best.
As far as who likes or promotes our product, neither Louis Markoya, or Greg
T, (who seems to have vanished from the face of the earth) are employees
of Impulse, or are paid in any way by us. They offered to be beta test
sites. If they promote our products they do it because they prefer it that
way. We at Impulse are not artists and have never claimed to be. We use a
encourage a variety of talent to use our product, and help us to make it
better. Turbo Silver is a direct outgrowth of what THE USERS OF IT
WANT!!
We have never claimed that our editor is the best in town. As I have said
many times before, a large percentage of our users how have switched
programs still prefer the SC3D interface. Fine. Big Deal. With programs
like Interchange, 3-Demon, and Modeler 3D, The user can use what he feels
comfortable with. As far as objects size I have created MANY objects which
will not load entirely into Sculpt Animate. We have successfully created
objects with 50,000 triangles, and traced them!.
The colors ARE brighter not just appear brighter. The simple reason is
that our math is taken out MUCH farther than Sculpt, allowing MUCH MUCH
better palette creations. If you would pay any attention at all to your
competitors, you will see we too have variable blending abilities.
Writing to the screen while tracing DOES NOT SIGNIFICANTLY reduce trace
time. But a FAR SUPERIOR Octree handling system does reduce the time.
Again if you would look at turbo silver before you critisize so heavily,
you would have seen that a trace CAN BE ABORTED AT ANY TIME! You can even
pick a small area of the screen to trace, by setting a zone the user can
trace
I would like to apologize to Louis Markoya regarding my comments made as to
his affiliation with Impulse. It has come to my attention that his only
connection to Impulse has been as a beta tester, for which he received no
compensation other than a copy of the product. Louis in an independent
artist who beta tests for many companies.
Steve Bell Byte by Byte Corporation
(continued) – ANY AREA if ANY SIZE of the screen to check his/her rendering.
You can even pixelize the file for a quick preview mode.
Rendering times are so far apart in the 2 products there is really no basis of
comparison. As you haven't bothered to check you facts prior flappin you lip,
You are probably not aware that the current version of Turbo Silver, is
interim, and has MANY FURTHER enhamcements and is also due out 9/15. And not
for $500, but FREE to current users.
We have NEVER I repeat NEVER charged one penny for support, or bug fixes.
and we NEVER WILL!. Will Sculpt 4D allow for up to 32,000 light sources,
shaded or not? Will Sculpt 4D have Bump (True Texture) mapping, Will
Sculpt 4D allow ANY object to be a light source?, Will Sculpt 4D have a
version of the software supporting the 020/030 881/882 boards on the disk
AT NO EXTRA COST?
We have made and will continue making ALL OF OUR FORMAT available to those
who would like them.
Regarding the more professional aspect of Sculpt vs Turbo Silver, at the
recent SigGraph show in Atlanta, why was Byte By Byte NOT in the Commodore
booth ? Why was Byte by Byte in the corner STILL showing the Kahnakas demo
on an Amiga, while promising it on the Mac II ??, The reason is that
Impulse WAS in the Commodore booth showing 15MEG of new demos. Or could it
be that Byte by Byte has so alienated their user base, dealers,
distributors, and Commodore??, that by their own actions have pushed Turbo
Silver to it's rightful position as the number one Ray Tracer for the
Amiga, without us having to spend a single penny on slick yappy
advertising. I will propose to you the same offer we proposed to Scott.
Have ANY INDEPENDANT publication or individual compare the two programs
using the same set of data and equipment, and publish the results.
Regarding Mr. Stan Kalishers comments as to Byte by Byte Corporation not
being in Commodore's booth a Siggraph:
Byte by Byte represented the Amiga at Siggraph '88 with our own booth, as
did no other Amiga developer other than the University of Lowell. Our
independent representation lends much more credibility to the Amiga than
those who are still tied to Commodore's purse strings. We exhibited many
new animations targeted at specific professional vertical markets. We also
exhibited pictures and animations on the Macintosh II. We stunned the
crowds with our ability to create sophisticated 3D animation as they
watched, rather than just showing previously created animations. The major
hardware vendors once again requested us to rewrite Sculpt-Animate for
their platforms. We will not be the judge as to the success of Commodore's
booth at Siggraph since we were far too busy at our own booth to notice.
Reports have indicated though that many times the Byte by Byte booth was
more crowded than the entire Commodore booth.
Byte by Byte has also represented the Amiga at numerous other major trade
shows this year. These shows include: LA AmiExpo, New York Computer
Graphics Show, the Hannover Fair, FOSE, NCGA, NAB (Commodore was in our
booth), Comdex, and the Chicago AmiExpo. Further evidence of our support
and commitment of the Amiga community is the extensive press coverage that
we have garnered in the professional graphics and video magazines.
We will continue to promote the Amiga as a professional graphics and video
workstation.
Scott A. Peterson President Byte by Byte Corporation
Lastly, Byte by Byte (Scott Peterson) has made it very clear on numerous
occasions, and in public, that He now hates the Amiga, Amiga users are a
bunch of theives, and he is only interested in the Mac II. So what are you
crying about ????? I don't think we have been guilty of any blatant Sculpt
bashing on this or any other public forum. Certainly pointing out
differences in products, and emphasizing what one feels are better features
than anothers shouldn't be considered product bashing. There will always
be those who prefer one product over another. So be it. I personally can't
stand text adventure games, but believe me, Infocom ain't hurting. If you
you are crying the blues because of you lack of sales, perhaps you should
look a little closer to home, and not the competition. If you honestly
believe there is no competition to your products, why worry about it. There
are at least 3 other rendering packages due out by next year, perhaps
more. Some will undoubtably be fantastic! What are you going to do then?
We will continue on the course we have started, and let the octrees fall
where they may.
Stan Kalisher (Impulse)
Stan, your accusations as to my comments and feelings regarding the Amiga
and its users are absolutely false. These libelous comments, in addition
to others that have come to our attention, are unfounded. Not only are
these malicious remarks damaging to our reputation, but we feel personally
hurt because we have and are working harder than any other developer to
support and promote the Amiga.
It is true that we are also developing software for the Macintosh. Most of
the other Amiga developers, including your company Impulse, have or are
doing the same. Despite our development on other hardware platforms (never
the Atari), we will continue to support our current customers and enhance
our Amiga product line. As proof, we are releasing four new Amiga products
in the next 30 days.
To those like your self who resort to spreading vicious gossip to promote
their own product sales, we offer the following:
"And Judas went away and hanged himself" Matthew 27:5
"Go and do thou likewise" Luke 10:37
Scott A. Peterson, President of Byte by Byte Corporation
Scott, – First of all thank you for your apology and retraction of your
statement regarding Louis Markoya being a paid consultant or employee of
Impulse. I must though, admit that I am a bit concerned about your recent
message on this forum. It seems that what initially began as answers to
questions as to the differences between your products and Turbo Silver, by
users of this forum, has descended into a series of innuendos, immature
attacks and mis-information on the part of Byte by Byte. Please let me
again state the policies of Impulse. As we have done for the past 5 years,
we will continue to produce software and peripherals with the consumer in
mind. In that vein we will also continue to encourage constructive
criticism and suggestions from the users of our products, as this is the
best way we can determine how we can continue to serve the people who
purchase our products. We will also continue to provide free support to
users of our products, along with free or no cost upgrades on our products
whenever possible. It also appears that you feel we bear some sort of
animosity toward your company and it's products. That is simply not so. As
we feel that our product is far superior to Sculpt 3D and Sculpt Animate
(As we should) we shall continue to comapare the merits and features of the
two products, as you should, but using facts. In the spirit of the free
enterprise system we will continue to aggressively market our products. Our
challange as well as yours and every other vendor out there is to provide
the highest quality product to the consumer. To adopt a thought from
Aesop's fables, THE WORLD DOES NOT OWE YOU A LIVING. – (continued)
(continued) – The consumers we sell to owe us nothing. We on the other hand
owe everything to the folks out there who 'plunk' down their hard earned
dollars for our products. With that in mind, Impulse will continue to
strive for excellence in the products we produce. To that end, please be
on notice that we will be conducting a series of comparative tests between
our two products with the results, including all cells and objects being
published on this forum, and availble to it's members. We will also be
sending you a complimentary copy of Turbo Silver to allow you and your
employees to better evaluate the competition, as it seems apparent from the
comments previously expressed that you may not be familiar with the
program.
As we have stated before, let the user decide which product they prefer.
Again let me state that we at Impulse have no animosity toward Byte by
Byte, or any of it's employees. We wish you nothing but good fortune in
your venture into the Mac marketplace, Having been a Mac developer for 5
years, we know the immense challange you have before you.
Stanton L. Kalisher, Director Amiga Products Division.
Yeah, but PCLOplus has the fastest trace router of _any_ Amiga program.
Bleah!!!! Nyah-nyah!
<grinning foolishly>
Disclaimer:
PCLOplus routes PCB traces – not Ray traced images – under no circumstances
should this message be taken seriously by onlookers or combatents in this
particular fray)
Ben (Tonge-in-cheek-and-out-of-ear (ewwww!)) Blish
Ben – Yeah, I know it's so silly. Unfortunately in a public forum ya have
to respond on some way. We thought of offering to mud-wrestle at the next
Comdex in vegas, the winner being king of the hill and the loser pulling
the plug and moving to Uganda, but after a little consideration, we dediced
to pass.
<–Stan
Forgive the digression. I don't disagree with any of the substance of your
message. But Infocom IS hurting. In fact they're abandoning text
adventures.
Stan, I think th Stan, I think that your product is much better, in every
aspect. From renderingtimes to better looking results. I have both
TSilver and Sculpt, and have worked with Eric Graham with his early ray
tracer. The simple matter is, is that TSilver gives you better, more
professional results in a less amount of time.
Tim =\ Thanks. BTW – We got another batch of Terrain disks, yesterday and
the random checks indicate these are probably OK. I'm sending out your
replacement disk today.
That would be interesting. I'd like to see how TSiver handles the model.
Should I upload it here to CIS or directly to your computer? I live in
Sunnyvale, CA my area code is 408. Where are you? Also — if you have
diga, then we could use doubletalk — I've never tried it before. Jason.
Jason,
You can give me a call at 800-328-0184 between 9:30-4:30 Central time. and
we work out the details. I have Diga! though I rarely use it, as I prefer
Access!. You can also give me a rough idea how you would like it lit.
Thanx for the #. I'll call tomorrow between the specified hours to work
out a time. I suggest that we use diga so that we can chat about the
details of rendering while the file is being transferred. I'll get an
archive package ready for you w/ some samples and views. The file itself
requires almost all of my 1meg to render. If you have more than a meg then
there are some other things that I'll include in the sc3d scene to utilize
the memory. Thanx. Jason.
Stan, does your Terrain module use fractal geometry algorithms to generate
terrain? If so, Voss or FFC or other? — Art
Art, No we don't use fractal geometry in the Terrain module. We found that
using fractals was a bit more memory and disk intensive than we wanted it
to be. For us sticking with traingle based objects was a better solution
given the resolution available on the Amiga. Now that the product is "out
the door" We will have some time to produce some cells and objects to post
here in the DL's.
As far as I could tell, the Impulse Terrain program does use fractals. I think
this is just a matter of semantics… The Terrain program uses a triangle
subdivision method to make the flat surfaces.
John – The Texts and reference material we were using when Zack was writing
the program leads us to believe that what we are doing can't be considered
"fractal" geometry in the classic sense of the word, as everything that is
generated in the peaks is really quite regular. The only real random
irregular stuff in it is related to the roughness, or jagginess of how each
peak can appear. Otherwise the grids are subdivided into squares, then
into two triangles each. The fractal appearance I think is more related to
location of any particular triangle and how the phong shader acts on it.
Implementing true fractal geometry would allow us to do stuff like snow, or
smoke, grass etc. But The programmer thinks too much RAM and disk space
would be required to make it feasable. Not to mention the horrendous
rendering times which would come along with it due to the intese
densities.
Fractal landscapes can be generated as easily as you described… It just
takes that random element in the subdivision of the squares. While Terrain
may only subdivide once or twice, on the other end of the spectrum, a
*true* fractal is divided infinitely. I don't think those will even fit in
your 9 meg Amiga. 🙂
The biggest one we have tired so far is just over 50,000 triangles. It it
took a 7MB Amiga to render the image. But boy was it smoooth. – Knowing
Zack as well as I do, I'm sure if it was possible to do true fractal
generation stuff, using off the shelf hardware he would come up with a way,
as he keep talking about coding things like cigar smoke, and mist and other
off the wall effects.
I'd like to see a smoke module! Not only smoke but things like clouds
and fog and the like. It is just too hard to create objects like that on
any current graphic interface. I think that if you keep the price as low
as the Terrain module, many people (including myself) would buy the
product. By the way, I've got a few ideas for TSilver that you may want to
include. I'll be sending you a list of some neet-o features. One other
thing, I love the idea on having a light source be an IFF image. I suppose
that this could be used to add spectual highlights that look like a window
or a long neon light or whatever. I have had no luck doing this and was
wondering if it is possible to do that with the current version. I think I
am doing everything correct, spectual all the way up, and hardness on 15.
Anyway, if you have any tips, write me a responce.
Tim – We are working on it but without using true fractal geometry, it's
proving to be very difficut. The next rev you get will allow you to have
ann iff picture be a light source.
Hey, if you've got a list of ideas for 3D program add-ons, be sure to send me a
copy, too! I've always promised that the person who gives me an idea for a
product will get a free copy when/if the product becomes a real product… (So
far, I've thought of all my own products, tho. 🙂