#PageStream – Still Buggy
32 messages in this thread
Hi, Jack.
It's me again. <grin>
I have the upgrade, 1.61 according to the diskette. Also bought the fonts disks
(4 of em)… very nice fonts.
As to the "upgrade"…. well… <sigh>
THere are still an awful lot of destructive bugs in there. I am able to use the
package quite well for the most part by avoiding areas that have given me
trouble – acting like the package NEVER had that particular capability, y'see.
IT's still really powerful.
But I *really* wish you guys would do a *serious* bug fix on this thing. It's
been months since I gave you that last list, and many of those bugs have yet to
be addressed.
The prop gadgets still don't update when you zoom – that measn if you hit the
darn things, you fly off to somewhere else – VERY diorienting, let me tell you!
And *so* easy to fix. Text boxes still don't scale properly – there are
situations you can get into where they stretch vertically but only "weird out"
horizontally. Looks like the letters change size in the same position, if you
follow me. Ruins everything when that happens.
But MOST of all… when you type into the thing, more often than not the text
to the right of the cursor just erases itself… now THAT is a damn-serious
bug! How in the WORLD are you supposed to handle text you can't see? Is this a
new arcade game?
I realize I can hit the prop gadget (assumingit's in the right position, which
it probably isn't) and wait for the redraw – which can be quite a while,
depending on what I'm doing – but that's so counterproductive.
I've not done all that much with the update yet, but I sure do wish you guys
would fix the thing. Do you need help on your Amiga staff? I might be able to
spare some time, and I expect that I have the requisite experience. If your
company is interested, let me know and we'll talk about it. I know you are
supporting more than one machine, but if that's the only problem, then you've
obviously overreached yourself. Doesn't all that bad press hurt – a lot?
–Ben-
Ben,
The 'bad press' not only hurts the developer of a buggy program, it hurts Amiga
as well. PageStream is (has been) useless as a dependable or productive
program. At best it's an interesting beta program. The effect of such nonsense
on this machine has been a _serious_ decline in interest in Amiga in many
professional areas for the last year or so. It _did_ have a chance and many
were willing to give it a look. That window has long since narrowed and is
probably closed. Gold Disk can't carry the DTP field alone (unfortunately) and
the lack of _any_ other competent DTP programs/utilities/resources/activity is
a sad, sad indicator of the health of this machine.
Rich
Rich, I'm no fan of the way things have been going, but it seems to me that
your current "Everything will be 386" doom and gloom verges on hysteria.
PageStream is not only more than a "buggy Beta", it's an extremely powerful
piece of software. The IFF capabilit the Amiga has makes it all the more so,
and SoftLogiks proprietary font technology renders the cost of a *really*
expensive "postscript" printer needless.
The Amiga has a good future potential, even if YOU have not found the software
to run your office with it. It's a lot more powerful a platform, as I think you
are aware, and there is always software in development for it.
The IBM's are JUNK, Rich, no two ways about it. If they can do a good job at
some things, that's just great. There remain a huge number of things they can't
do a good job at, which include the sound capabilities which are useful for
musicians, the multitasking which is useful for anyone who does real productive
work (and don't tell me about OS/2 – that's buggy, poorly designed and hard to
manage, had little support to begin with and has LESS now, and isn't compatible
with the mainstream machines anyway)
I have the Gold Disk product as well, and for my money, pageStream beats it
hands down. It's a real tool, which attempts to get the most out of the least
resources.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinions, but I heartily disagree – I think
you have been snowed by somebody (probably an IBM user or salesman) and I also
think that you'll pay heavily for any decision to go with IBM, losing more than
you gain.
Better to push the Amiga evironment, whatever you think of it, than to
denigrate it in *general* terms. I too pick nits, and with some ferocity… but
my perception is that doing so increases the strenght of the machine. I see the
machine as the important thing, not CBM's feelings on the matter.
But to say that the Amiga isn't a serious contender, nor PageStream, simply say
to me that you've not spent the time to learn what PageStream can do. Because
the answer is a LOT.
–Ben-
Come on Ben,
If you work for a company of 60+ people that hve lots of specs (mechanical,
electrical and software) are you trying to tell mey you would steer them to by
Amigas for DTP instead of Macs or PeeCee with Ventura?? If so you wouldn't
last long after Pagestream got nay significant use. It is light years away from
acceptable for daily, high pressure, must do usage! (And yes, I DO regret that
it is, after a year of waiting for the initial release, and having had a
release that fixed very little, still nothing more than a home user's somwhat
useful tool with potential).
wmc
I agree!
Regards,
Paul
I would currently reccomend the AMiga over a mac or a pc in any situation that
didn't use a verticl app (like a dentists office' program).
If CBM cleans up their act I'll even feel good about doing it.
I don't reccomend drugs to have a single good time – and that is how I equte
the use of a Mac or a PC. One good time, thousands of headaches later, and your
whole life screwed by that one wrong choice. An AMiga is the RIGHT decision, as
far as I'm concerened.
I get a lot done with pagestream, bugs and all, and I can truthfully say that
none of the bugs has stopped me from doing what I wanted to do. Just
inconvenienced me.
–Ben-
Ben,
You a gutsy fella!! If the IMS manager in our shop took the documentation
departments Macs away, the logistics departments PC's away, the mechanical and
electrical engineers and control systems guys 286/386 machines away, and
replaced them with Amigas, or even started getting Amigas to accommodate the
expansion, i GARUNTEE you would be out of a job in a month.
1. Propage/ Pagestream do not accomodate the formats you are likely to get
stuff from customers, contractors et al that has to be put into the DTP for
final publication. The documentation folks (read non technical clerk types)
would be slashing you tires after 2 days of PageStream.
2. No suitable project management or scheduling software exists for the AMiga.
NO relational data bse supporting SQL or other industry standard querey
language exists. No suitably large spreadsheet program exists tha can keep
track of all expenses associated with project that has ove 300 WBS numbers (a
la symphony), so the logistics and program management people couldn't even
work!!
3. No serious 3d modelling system sufficient to mechanical design (al la
autocad, unigraphics, IDEAS….) exists, so scratch the electrical and
mechanical designers.
4. only a stripped down PD version of Matrix X exists for the Amiga, no
<continued>
<continuation>
other control system or stability analysis tools exist, so the controls guys
are left out.
5. no Ada compiler, no MIL-STD CASE environment, no compilers that can create
prommable code, or cross compile to a target machine other than 680×0 in an
Amiga, not even a DFD/ERD generator. So scratch serious software development.
6. Wordprocessors…I don't think this one even bears going into… say bye
bye to secretarial and clerk usage.
So, that is why the Amiga is striclty an artist and hobby machine… software!
I would that it were different, but facts is facts! And unless Amiga gets the
UNIX thing going and can get real tools in DTP to challange packages like
Interleaf, CASE stuff like Teamwork, project management stuff like Artemis or
Timeline, REAL cad programs, Real engineering and software tools, it will be
for its entire life, an artist/hobbyist machine. And people (like you) who go
recommendding their firms switch to Amigas will be filling the data processing
situations wanted columns of the trades.
I do admire your loyalty to the machine. If only the people with money had that
loyalty we might see some of the packages I mentioned come to market. SoftLogik
might be able to hire real programmers to fix the bugs. You might be able to
make a living selling Amiga office automation systems or Amiga engineering
workstations. But until then, consider that discretion
<continued>
<continuation>
is the better part of valor… keep Ami safe at home in the den or in the
studio and keep your paycheck rolling in…don't recommend Amigas for serious
business use. The bad taste left in users mouths will only damage any
opportunity an Amiga based product.
wmc
Wayne,
Wow! (nodding head in sad agreement) Maybe Unix will be the answer.
Rich
I doubt that seriously.
ADA, fo rinstance, has no significance at ALL for systems aimed at small
businesses. Neither do most of the "heavy" dtp specifications.
And you forget one important thing…
The Amiga can be a mac, an amiga, or an IBM. Your choice, at the time of your
preference.
You have ALL the software available from three major markets.
Mac II stuff (which is a minority — how many are there?) and dedicated 386
stuff is out; but that leaves a heck of a lot left.
I think the only serious machine out there is an Amiga – any other viewpoint
seems "blindered" to me.
The Amiga's problem is not software it's the (so far) lack of proper marketing.
All the rest will follow, and trash designs like the mac and the IBM wwould
suffer heavily as a result of good marketing of this machine.
Sure we need software. We always will, as will all the other machines.
Again, it's important to keep in mind where the Amiga is in relation to how
long it's been on the market.
yMPro{potionally, its {ahead in s{_w3oftware. it's STILL ahead in hardware and
its way behind in marketing.
–Ben-
Wayne;
I agree with you on all but one count. With the current version of Word
Perfecty, word processing on the amy far out strips the PCs. It is very easy
for one to be more productive with less pain using amy WP than IBM WP. Most of
the time the amy WP is even faster than WP on a 286 PC, just raw speed much
less easy of doing things.
=>73<=, bill <KB7LX @ WA4LPD>
Bill,
If you find WP faster on Amiga than MSDOS then your experience is _very_
different from mine. Maybe I have Amiga set up wrong? I have asked WP Corp why
list files, screen refresh, reposition takes so long on my 2000 and they say
that the difference is due to the fact that the Amiga has to redraw _all_ the
windows that are present (active or not) when _any_ requestor or gadget is
activated. My MSDOS WP beats Amiga at sheer speed hands down. Supposedly the
upcoming maintenence update will allow the user to open a custom window and
this will result in a speed up. I find WP rather clumsy and slow on the Amiga
(but better than anything else for my use). Hope this improves with the
maintenence fixes.
Rich
Rich,
The update will do much to improve the cluminess/slowness of requestor usage
in Amiga WP. It is a fact that displaying on the IBM is faster (MUCH less
overhead), but we're getting to where the differences are quite so obvious.
We've spent a lot of time on this issue and hope that we'll make people happy.
//
\X/ Lynn
Lynn,
Thanks for that I reply. BTW I had a chance to use WP on a MAC II today with
the HUGE radius monitor. Very Nice. Being able to see the whole page at one
time with that great resolution and detail was very conducive to productivity.
And the preview mode with the two page display was a knockout. Any chance of
ever getting that on the Amiga?
Rich
Lynn,
Is the hyphen problem fixed?
Betty
Rich;
I find that with searches and search-and-replace that the Amiga is
significantly faster. The files that I am dealing with are heavily formatted
outline type files. I am not sure what happens with 'regular text.'
=>73<=, bill <KB7LX @ WA4LPD>
Bill,
Interesting. No matter what function I look at, MSDOS WP is faster (286
machines at 10 and 12 MHz). See Lynn's message here.
Rich
Ben,
I'm afraid you have misunderstood several of my 'hysterical messages about the
386 situation. Hysterical? Doom and Gloom? No. Just cold, objective evaluation.
The Amiga is a better machine. I have never argued the technology. My point is
that the machine is just a tool to get the job done. The job can't be done well
with the Amiga. Not as well as with the 386 and the software that is now
available and is appearing in avalanche form. Software development for Amiga
worse than a snail's pace. It is second rate, period.
It is very difficult to say these things but they are true. The potential of
the Amiga is still there. I'm afraid it will always just be that . . .
potential with no practical use. Multitasking is wonderful but the programs
that we have to multitask with are not up to the sophistication of programs on
the other machines. And the numbers continue to go in that direction . . . at
an exponential rate.
The 386 accomplishes with sheer speed and horsepower what the Amiga can only
promise. I have not been mislead by anyone. The power of graphic design/
production/page layout/speed/convenience with a 386 (and soon 486) running off
the shelf programs (Ventura Publisher, PageMaker, Quark, Micrographics
Desiigner, Corel Draw – and _all_ the support utilities) is staggering. _And_
at a price that is often _less_ than a 'professionally' equipped Amiga.
I don't for a minute deny any of the things you say about OS/2. You understand
these things better than I. All I know is that the sheer weight of numbers and
intellectual power of all the attention paid to programming the 'brain damaged'
MSDOS systems has resulted in powerful, useful, no-nonsense tools that put our
machines to shame. We our hacking around with a home computer running home
programs. Come to work in my design firm with an Amiga and PageStream. You'll
last about one day. You'll either be fired, quit in frustration or realize that
you need tools that work. Pro Page works. PgS is a nightmare. The point is that
neither of these programs shortcomings would be tolerated by anybody who needed
to get work out the door, pay his rent, etc. Like you
Rich
Continued from previous message . . .
Like you I love this machine. But I can't program it to do the things I need it
to do. It's like having a Mercedes Benz that will only make right hand turns. I
need to make left hand turns too. Everyone is buying Chevys 'cause they can
turn left _and_ right. People are flocking to the chevys in droves. I stand
here and smugly say 'fools, my MB is a _much_ better car. But I can't get to
work in it. I can only run around in circles. While their chevys get them
everywhere they want to go.
Come on Ben. Get me an auto-trace program. A 'Fontagrapher' like program. How
about a Digital Darkroom program. Automatic blends (tints and shapes). Map text
to a path. Clipping paths. These are basic tools that are easily available in
MSDOS, will be improved rapidly or expanded. While we sit here with our little
jewel of a machine waiting. For What? Well, maybe Unix.
Rich
Rich;
Well stated and probably a reasonable evaluation. I wish, like you, that Ben
were right, but…..
=>73<=, bill <KB7LX @ WA4LPD>
Rich – the reason I described your messages as hysterical is evident in that
reply.
Paragraph 1 – "avalanche", "cold, objective", "snail's pace"
Para 2 – "exponential rate"
Para 3 – "sheer speed and horsepower"
Para 4 – "sheer numbers", "intellectual power", "home computer", "home
programs".
all that stuff is OPINION, and yours only, at that.
The IBM programs are generally brain damaged, severly limited in scope, and (of
course) single tasked and threaded.
There IS NO AVALANCHE of OS/2 programs, further there are very few OS/2
programs, period. Those that are in place don't work well, and underneath them,
the OS doesn't work well.
The MS DOS machines DO have a wide range of software, and I suspect that should
the AMiga fall by the wayside, it'll land on top of OS/2 which has been there
since before it's release.
MS DOS has the best chance, of course.
The AMiga has the best potential – again, of course.
Programs that are available on the Amiga, in the areas where people have really
worked hard, are second to none; this incudes the video area more than
anything, and sound too.
The machine needs support so that serious DTP types will write for it. We're
much less down the road than the Mac is, and we're WAY ahead of where the Mac
was at the same relative time.
I think you're wrong – and your facts are seriously biased.
Finally, the MAJOR user of DTP isn't a "shop", it's a small situation like a
home. And pagestream fills the bill
You have to plug the tool into the job. If you don't, you can't evaluate the
thing at all.
I think you'll see plenty of serious DTP stuff, Rich – but we'll ahev to wait
to see who it is that has the better foresight.
–Ben-
Ben,
Well, when you talk about hardware, programming, bitplanes, I/O, operating
systems, and like that, I have to defer to your expertise. But in the area of
electronic page description, I'm afraid you do not understand the basics or the
fine points. First of all, I said nothing about an avalanche of programs for
OS/2. I _was_ referring to MSDOS and specifically, the 386 machines. The
Graphics capabilities of those machines with the programs I mentioned put the
Amiga to shame. The fact that the Amiga has more potential is not the point and
ceased to be the point for some time now. There is nothing, repeat nothing in
the Amiga software development world to remotely compare to what is going on in
MSDOS/ OS/2. And for one very simple reason. MARKET … spelled MONEY. The 386
machines _do_ accomplish with sheer speed what the Amiga only promises. Ben,
sit down with a 25 MHz 386, Ventura publisher, Corel Draw, Micrografx Designer,
and tell me those machines don't cook.
DTP is for home use, huh? Dot matrix printers is it? Hack around all you want
but don't try and tell me that 300 dpi is printing, sir. I'm talking 2400 dpi
Lino 300's, four color Heidlebergs, Scitex scanners. With Gold Disk's help, my
own meager ability to program in PostScript, and 35 years experience in
graphics arts I can get by with the Amiga for a while longer. But it's a pain.
And it's a royal pain watching so called inferior machines acomplish easily
what I have to sweat about. Ben, this machine has missed a very large window of
opportunity. Before MSDOS woke up to the MAC's graphic power and decided to
catch it and pass it, Amiga had a chance to join the race and win. No longer.
Software development on this machine is almost non-existent compared to the
other platforms.
Hysterical? Nah! Realistic. And _very_ objective. Pardon me now, my presses are
running.
Rich
Hmmm … I have Pagestream V1.61 and Professional Page V1.2. Professional Page
wins hands down. Mind you, I use a Postscript printer. No matter what magic is
done to "smooth" the fonts in Pagestream or in Professional Page V1.3, dot
matrix doesn't cut it in the professional world. Also, the dot matrix fonts
supplied with Pagestream are pretty badly broken in places. I have watched
Pagestream crash too many times to consider it a "safe" DP to use for my
purposes. Sure, there are some nice bells and whistles on Pagestream, but until
the bugs are ironed out, I'll pass thanks.
Regards,
Paul
Paul, a postscript printer IS a dot matrix printer; and the technolofy used to
make the fonts is very similar to that of pagestream.
pagestream currently has some rendering problems which are quite obviously
causing artifacts on the fonts if you look closely. The curves are as pure as
any from a PS printer.
They need to pull bugs… sure. But it's STILL a far more effective package
than the ho-hum ones we've been stuck with previously.
And as far as I'm concerned, any package that REQUIRES a PS printer is useless.
Don't have one, won't buy one.
–Ben-
Now, now … Miata'a and Corvettes are both convertibles too.
And I would sure have a tough time selling a new paint job on the 'vette if I
did it with a paint brush instead of a sprayer!!
You're right though, it's a significant improvement over some of the other
programs designed expressly for dot matrix printers. But like I said,
Postscript output on a laser beats anything on a pin-driven matrix printer.
Regards,
Paul
There is a new program coming from a company in Canada called Saxon. I've
seen scren shots, and its going to blow the door off of everything out
there. I think it is going to cost $445 or in that range. Also I worked
some the last 2 weeks with the new ProPage & ProDraw (beta) – we are
getting there.
What is Saxon? I have spoken to Gold Disk about about ProPage. Yes we are
getting there. The problem is by the time we do we find the other guys have
already gone on to the next thing. OK, OK I'll stop griping 8>
I believe that Saxon is the name of the company and not the product, and that
they are from the same area of Canada as Gold Disk. I was looking at the
screen shots on a Sony Multi-sync using the FlickerFixer and I thought I was
looking at a very polished – full feature MAC program. It appears to have
every feature of ProPage – ProDraw and PageStream rolled into one.
The new (beta) versions of ProPage and ProDraw are greatly improved. I was
working at AMIGOTIMES on my vacation "little help with my 1st 4 color job" and
just soaking up all the good things coming. The next issue of AMIGOTIMES will
feature DTP and you may see more info on Saxon.
My company is about to close a large deal in Irvine, maybe I can get a copy of
those screen shots, and we could meet some evening. I love meeting with people
who use the AMIGA for real work.
The AMIGOTIMES is produced 100% on six AMIGA's with 3 other machines for office
functions. I meet some very nice and talented people there. Will let you know
next week if I will be in California.
Ben,
Jack is not on SoftLogik payroll… he is just a freind of the company and is
also not an Amiga user.
Send your bug lists to SoftLogic by pony express or call Mark at 314-894-0431
to get to the company. And don't let them tell you its your fault for not
operating the program correctly!!
wmc
I write them letters, Wayne. jack was taking bugs last I heard. No problem.
–Ben-
Hi Ben…and sorry that it took me so long to get back to you, but I've been
out of town for the last week.
Regarding the "upgrade" to 1.61, yes….I know. <sigh> Frankly, I don't know
if I'm supposed to "admit" the following, but I wasn't told _not_ to, either…
soooo….<grin!>…there have been several more recent betas, and _some_ of
those things have been fixed, others (reportedly) haven't…As to _why_, I
don't honestly know either. My frustration is even greater, I suspect, than
yours… I know that they _can_ fix this stuff, and I see some of the causes
that prevent them from doing so, but I'm not in an administrative position, and
my thoughts carry little weight on those matters.
Your perseverance (and that of others who share your feelings) are appreciated
by myself, and some of the other "faithful", and the best that I can offer,
personally, is to ask you to continue…it has stood me in good stead, over the
long haul, and I would hope that it might do the same for you.
Seeya! [Jack]