#RSX –> Unix
9 messages in this thread
Hi, Gary; just though I'd put my two-cents in…
I hope I'm not too late! I can't caution you NEARLY enough that IMHO you
are planning to exchange one set of headaches with another EVEN BIGGER set
of headaches!! DANGER! DANGER!!
Well, (now that I have your attention), I would consider this: although
you're experiencing problems maintaining your 11/23, you should understand
that RSX-11M, although primitive in some respects, is _MUCH_ easier to
learn, use, and maintain than ANY Unix system.
Unix was hacked together BY hackers FOR hackers (in the best sense of the
word, however good that is), under cover of darkness in their free time .
To wit, a couple of guys were working on a PDP-11 back in pre-historic
times and didn't like the archaic DEC-supplied OS they had to use (RT-11 ~
V1.x, I think), so they kludged together their own OS, which included a
couple of new ideas that haven't really been duplicated by any other OS.
But although these new ideas remain the exclusive province of Unix, they
are clearly designed for programmers (particularly "bitheads", who relish
the unbridled over-complexity of Unix) who are performing new software
development, and most decidedly NOT for anyone else, PARTICULARY NOT for
users, managers, operators, and general human beings.
Unix (and its bastard sibling "C") would have dropped unnoticed into
oblivion were it not for the _EXTREMELY_ successful marketing techniques of
Bell/AT&T, who donated UNIX free of charge to any and all colleges and
universities who asked for it. Since the PDP-11 was an extremely popular
machine (there are still more PDP-11's out there than IBM PC's), and DEC's
licensed operating systems were so expensive (anything is more expensive
than free!), Unix was taught and learned by a majority of students around
the world, and these same students
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were rarely exposed to any other OS. Consequently, as these students
graduated and entered decision-making positions in the workforce, the
demand for "C" and Unix became a deafening roar that is now totally
self-perpetuating; those two old hackers have successfully conquered the
world!
I'll stop ranting now, and simply point out that the most informed and
respected observers of the computing field have universally called Unix
"User-Hostile!"
A VASTLY superior alternative would be to purchase a used MicroVAX (they
can be had for as little as $3,000) and VAX/VMS version 5.2 or 5.3, and
simply move your disk packs from the PDP to the VAX and re-compile with VAX
COBOL, which is extremely nice and includes a particularly nice symbolic
debugger which runs seemlessly under VMS. Note also that you can run most
VAXes under what's called "Compatibility Mode", which allows an RSX-based
application to run on the VAX probably WITHOUT even re-compiling!
Furthermore, you most likely won't have to pay ANYONE outside your
current employees to make the transition to VMS, whereas the hire
consultants to make the transition from PDP/RSX to PC-Clone UNIX would cost
a very great deal indeed, and you would also have to permanently hire a
Unix "guru" or two to make sense out of your system and keep it running!
I myself am an independent consultant with considerable experience with
RSX-11M, Unix, and VMS, and I do not have any association with DEC, so my
opinion is as objective as an opinion CAN be (regardless of the tone of
this letter). Do youself and your staff a favor and avoid Unix like the
plague!
— Martin Bush
For only `two cents', you have done a remarkable job of expressing my own
opinions regarding unix and other similar derivitives. I sat up with more
interest, however, when you suggested the relative numbers of PC's and
PDP11's that are `out there'. Can you cite any sources for the number of
11's still functioning in the marketplace? I would be interested in seeing
such figures. Thanks, Jerry
(a anything-else-but-unix fan)
I don't think Martin's numbers are correct any more on PDP-11s vs. PCs.
DEC doesn't provide numbers, but the latest estimates I saw (a year or so
ago) put PDP-11s in the hundreds of thousands (500K I believe) while PCs
are clearly in the millions now. I think IBM alone is selling a million
PS/2s or something obscene like that a year, aren't they?
-Bill
Sadly, Bill, 'tis true. While I am pleased that computing has moved out of
the back rooms of institutions, frequently to the kitchen table, I sure
wish DEC had been able to participate more fully in this `brave new world'.
And then they sneak off and get married to Radio Shack…. . . Oh, well.
Them were the days. Onward! Jerry
Read action !
Closing out this question, DEC announced as part of the 11/9x introduction
that "over 600,000" PDP-11s have been sold.
-Bill
600,000 PDP-11 sold, huh? Well, that is certainly a rexpectable number of
computers, but obviously not at the level of `PC' style gadgets. I had
privately told myself there were probably less than half-million. Hmmm,
recalling the old Volvo ads, I wonder how many of'em are still running?
Thanks, Jerry.
I just have had a pdp-11/73 dropped into my lap and now i am the system
admin. This is a brand new 11.
j
Martin,
A few nits to be picked:
UNIX was originally developed on a PDP-7, not a PDP-11, though the first
copies that left Bell Labs were indeed -11 versions. I know, because I
indeed got THE first copy out of the Labs, complete with Ken Thompson's
personal desk copy of the manual because they were too busy to print one
for me, complete with his notes in the margins… unfortunately I don't own
it any more.
Giving UNIX to colleges and universities was not clever AT&T marketing.
At the time (early-mid 70s… copy #1 went out in late summer/early fall
'73), AT&T was PROHIBITED by Consent Decrees and various other legalities
from getting involved in computing. The ONLY way UNIX could see any light
outside Bell Labs was "free distribution" (meaning AT&T got no profit from
the sale, AND would provide no support). Ken and Dennis were actually
legitimately interested in getting this system out there. In those days it
was actually quite good by comparison (the only other multi-user
alternative for a -11 was RSTS … not even RSTS/E, just RSTS, at the time,
and that was limited to BASIC as a programming language. We lucked into
UNIX instead of having to write our OWN decent operating system for the
-11.). Of course a side effect of all that university distribution is that
the system was hacked twelve ways to Sunday by everyone and his/her
brother, with no discipline and no standards, so it was not *too* many
years before proprietary operating systems caught up (by virtue of
discipline and standards) technically. That's one reason why my company
got out of active UNIX software development in '85 and went to RSX and VMS.
Anyway as you can see I don't at all disagree with the thrust of your
argument… just wanted to be sure that the next time you use it, the other
side can't accuse you of not knowing the facts 🙂 …
-Bill