RenderMan standard
26 messages in this thread
– Yeah, I saw that and am wondering same as Steve…..big bux? Why not use
a Mac? hehehe Could be GREAT for DTV/DTFilm and AMIGA. If it is at a
reasonable price. 'Till then……not holding my breath and for the
moment….heigh ho Silver…..away!
-I want to see Imagine! before I worry about Pixar and friends.
-Scott
Impulse has toyed with the idea of including a Renderman interface with its
products. Please help me out here: beyond the sex appeal of compatibility
with these fabled high end systems, how many of you would TRULY have a use
for Renderman? What would those uses be? Please reply as soon as possible
and I will forward your responses to Impulse. If enough of you respond
intelligently to this issue, we may be able to slip this feature into a
future release of Imagine.
Thanks,
Rick Rodriguez
Do it! Do it!
Currently, there is a relatively big television network that has shown
interest in the Amiga and its ability to do graphics. They want 24 bit,
which firecracker 24 will give, they want professional 3d modeling software
which Imagine should fit most of their needs, and they want compatability
with some of there other equipment.
This would be a excellent addition to Imagine.
-mark=
Hey, even the people I know who have Renderman, aren't finding much use for
it… 🙂 Sure, it makes great pictures, but one friend has the PC
version, on a souped-up 386, with its own hard disk and a very nice
high-res board, and he only bothers to make tiny 1/8 or 1/4 screen
renderings because of the time it takes to make a picture. I've toyed with
the idea of a Renderman output module for InterChange. It's possible, but
I haven't had a single serious person ask for it. Hell, we've got
Wavefront and Digital Arts two-way conversion modules, and a DXF output
module, and the demand for them is quite slim.
I'm convinced there's lots of people who feel better about the world, and
about themselves, if they simply know that a product exists, or if they can
tell someone that it exists. "Ah, yes, the Amiga has this
Renderman-compatible 3D package." No matter that anyone really uses it…
things are rosy because it exists.
Here, here. Unfortunately, part of the problem is caused by the general
computer press which makes such a big deal out of non-issues like Renderman
compatibility. You don't read anywhere about the actual application of the
standard. –Rick
I overheard a Pixar employee at the Newtek booth at SIGGRAPH say that CBM
had given Pixar "a few Amigas" to coax them to port Renderman to it. That
may tell you something. He also said that if Allen's LW3D software came
with Renderman support, the Amiga would get used more by the "big boys".
There's no reason why this wouldn't apply to Imagine as well.
I'm no expert on this, Rick, but my guess is that, as John says, most of
us (on CIS) would get little or no use out of Renderman support in Imagine.
But people who we have little contact with at the video houses who render
for a living on big budgets, might do a lot of their front-end work on
Amigas if the Renderman support was available. I'd certainly think their
productivity would climb since they could afford more design stations that
way.
Maybe this is the way to look at it: Since Imagine supports 24-bit
output, and Impulse will now produce the FC24, and Imagine's price will
edge toward "professional" prices, it's evident that Impulse is shooting
for bigger fish. SOME of those fish will get use out of Renderman. Whether
it will sell a lot more packages, I'm not sure. But if Newtek does slip it
into LW3D, and they do sell the software separately from the Toaster, and
Imagine doesn't support Renderman, it may hurt its sales somewhat. Perhaps
include it as an add-on option? Those of us using it at home in a hobby
sense will certainly get no use out of it, and in a selfish vein, I'd
certainly hate to wait longer for Imagine for it. <grin> It was great to
see you at SIGGRAPH,
Imagine's price is edging towards "professional" prices? Hardly! I don't
know of any other package with similar capabilities (assuming Imagine
tastes as good as it looks) for under a 5-figure price tag. Personally–
and you didn't hear this, Mr. Halvorson– I think Impulse should probably
get twice as much for the software. And no doubt they would in the Mac or
IBM market. So here's hoping they sell lots of copies! (and soon…)
Well, I said "toward" professional prices! <chuckle> Yes, I suppose you're
right. Though if you're using Sculpt's pricing for their Mac version of 4D,
I'd reconsider. I think they went a little overboard there even for THAT
market. Oh well, I don't pay as much attention to pricing on that end, so
you may be right. I'd just hate to see a lot of people who can't afford
software of that magnitude left out in the cold. Like me?
Karl,
I think you're right about Sculpt going for excessive $$$ in the Mac
market. If I remember, it was more like a Mac version of Sculpt3D (little
or no animation), with no rendering enhancements. Too bad; I kind of liked
some of the features in Sculpt, and still use it for most of my modeling.
Might even keep using it after I get my copy of Imagine; there are some
very handy tools (like the helix and true splines).
Hey, I think it's great that Imagine should be under $500. If I could
afford the big boxes (and buckses) I would have a Silicon Graphics of my
own… and be regretting the purchase, since the 68040 should pretty much
make the Amiga a real workstation. I just hope Impulse can sell a pile of
disks, turn a nice profit, and stay in business for many years to come.
They deserve it, as do all the other developers who stuck with the Amiga
through the lean years (assuming the lean years are ending!…)
-Jeff
Jeff,
You're definately right about Sculpt 3D being overpriced on the Mac Market.
A couple of products have recently released that have rendering and motion
that retail for around $895 list. I think Byte-by-Byte is going to have to
rethink its pricing.
On the amiga, I am very enthused by the Lakeforest announcement, if we can
just get a reasonable time to market on the thing, it could be very good
for the amiga community. It probably won't be cheap, and I know they are
looking at some pretty expensive peripherals for the really fast
performance (i860 coprocessing boards are a good bet), but hopefully the
software itself won't be as expensive as the Mac market, but unfortionately
I know very little about thier pricing at the moment.
As for Impulse and Imagine supporting Renderman, I think it's a great idea.
(Hopefully, in a later rev. so we don't have to wait on the code.) I think
that along with the compatability "tag" bonuses, there's a market for video
service bureaus that except DTV renderman output. If enough DTV systems
become available to allow such a thing. And of course all Video houses that
do 3D could use front-end modeling and scene design stations that don't
cost as much as the high end video workstations used for final rendering.
Like it or not, however, we realize that the Amiga market just can't bear a
price too close to the $500 range. This is what drove Byte by Byte out of
the Amiga market. Now they sell the functional equivalent of the $495
Sculpt 4D to Mac users for $3500! –Rick
Rick,
I'm not surprised at the limit on Amiga software pricing. I guess for
better or worse, the developers just have to face it. I hope that there is
or develops a sizeable enough market for developers to tackle substantial
projects for the Amiga. Check Pgph. 2 of my message to Karl Sparklin
(msg.#37642).
-Jeff
Good to meet you too, Karl. BTW, don't worry about Imagine. Last touches
are being made as we speak. Stage is more powerful than any of us had
imagined (oops). –Rick
Rick,
Drool. Can you tease me with some additions that have been added since
SIGGRAPH? There's a lynch mob forming in Dayton that's converging on my
house since I said that we'd probably have Imagine by now. I keep climbing
out on the roof and shouting, "But it's getting better!!", but it's getting
pretty dicey up here.
Karl
Sorry, Karl, you'll just have to hang on there. I'm trying to learn these
new features myself. I'll report back soon. –Rick
Rick,
Well, what's the new date? Shall we assume the standard two-week add-on?
<grumblingly patient>
Karl
Karl, at this point, I won't insult you with that one. How 'bout:
"Whenever it's finished." BTW, look for a new animation in AmigaVendor Lib
4 called Morph.LZH. It should be up by tomorrow. It's simple, but you'll
see some of the new point and color morphing capabilities. –Rick
Rick,
Ooh, goodie. Morph.LZH sounds like just the thing to stem my depression
at not being able to Imagine.
Karl
Karl–now it's my turn to be depressed. The file I spent an hour uploading
last night is no good. I don't think I'll have time to upload it 'til the
end of the week (the manual awaits). I'll post something when it really is
available. –Rick
Rick,
You DO use Whap!, don't you? If so, you can set Whap! to upload that file
and it can be uploading after you go to bed, or home for the day, or
whatever, and Whap! will sign you off once the file is finished.
.Betty
Not sure what an "intelligent reply" might consist of, but: We are
investigating the possibilities of using our Amigas as front-end modellers
for our PC-Platform systems running GSL's Topas with final RenderMan output
on a 486/25 platform (w/I860 technology). Is this relevant to your
considerations?
I know I've been giving a lot of grief over the delayed release of Imagine;
but let me add that I do expect it to be worth the wait-I recently learned
reflection mapping was added: truly excellent idea. As for this Renderman
thing, I think J.Foust's reply might be closest to the truth: a Renderman
package would be good, but not necessarily used. Even the possibility of
selling Amiga design stations to the folks with Silicon Graphics or Apollos
might be risky. The few high-end video houses in my area are having a hard
time getting the rates they want; I doubt they are looking to crank out
more work: they still have to get $$$ per hour for the big hardware. Things
might be different for scientific/non-entertainment graphics though. But
personally, I expect to be quite happy with the Imagine/F24 combo, without
Renderman. Especially when 68040 boards are released…
Jeff: I guess you sent me the message to "Rick" for my feedback. The
considerations of a larger firm/machine that are discussed are valid in my
opinion. It is, perhaps, unfortunate that timing doesn't seem to be in
sync for the development of PC-based hi-end graphics when most who already
have that look are still desperately trying to pay for what they have. It
is, though, a classic conflict in this business.
No one, NOBODY, should be buying equipment or software with a business plan
that assumes more than a two-year payback. There are simply NO exceptions
to this rule, in my opinion. Larger houses argue that violating this rule
has been the only way to get their hands on the look their clients have
demanded over the last few years. That has, until recently, been pretty
true.
The RenderMan handwriting, however, has been on the wall for AT LEAST two
years now, and anyone seriously considering cost-effective hi-end looks has
been well-advised to fence-sit. Those who purchased prior to this time
period are probably doing alright assuming that their initial business
plans were accurate and justified by their client base. I think its often
just a matter of fortune. And those who are now in their buying cycles are
the ones who will benefit. Even now, though, good arguments can be made
for sitting on the fence at least one more year as far as RenderMan is
concerned.
The software may become released soon for a variety of software products,
but the attribute files may not be fully developed for a while to come. It
might be somewhat akin to having had an Amiga 1000 in 1987. You knew the
power was there, but it had not yet been really tapped. And as for the
$$$/sec. on animations: The client market has become considerably more
sophisticated in their awareness of value. a $1000/sec. surcharge over
what a TARGA system can provide is seldom viewed favorably in any but the
broadcast market.
Another rule of thumb, I think, is: NEVER consider the system's salesman's
estimate of cost/finished second when computing your 2-year payback. You
know the one about the difference between a car salesman and a graphics
system salesman, don't you?
Ken, that is exactly what I want to know about. How many Amigas do you
own? What projects would you be involved with? –Rick
We own two Amigas, a 1000 with 2-1/2 Meg and a 60 Meg HD, and a 2000 with 1
Meg video Ram, 3 Meg RAM and a 45 Meg HD. Most of what we do is 3D
animation on a TARGA/Topas. A lot of logos and program support mostly.
Before getting the TARGA, we did everything on the Amigas using DPaint,
Videoscape and Aegis' 3D modeller. We haven't used the amiga for much
lately save the intensely useful 2D realtime animation capabilities in
DPIII. We were gratified to see the improvements as reflected in programs
such as the Disney product at SIGGRAPH as well as having had our interests
piqued by the RenderMan possibilities for the Amiga as a front end
modelling station. If you are interested in further discussion, please feel
free to call at our tollfree number: 800 327-6296
I suppose that the OBVIOUS reason for a Renderman interface is the N-word;
Networking
Suppose I had a team of engineers and they needed to download stuff to a
larger system, I would need COMPATIBILITY. I also would have probs with
CROSS-TRAINING, and, as a consultant, I ALWAYS find myself addressing these
issues with clients who are purchasing systems and that makes it hard to
recommend the Amiga sometimes. Especially where CAD/CAM, Database and
Networks come into play.
Personally, I see more use for the ability to import AND export AUTOCAD
format files on a network…….