#Toaster & IBM questions?
33 messages in this thread
I just went to the Macworld convention and saww something called the Video
Machine made in Germany. It's a nine input switcher, has more than 200 DVE,
has an built in audio mixing system with eight XLR inputs, an A-B roll edit
system, CG and time base corrector built in…but hold on to your seats….IT
CAN RUN ON THE MAC…AND ON IBM COMPATABLE COMPUTERS. I was about ready to buy
a toaster but the Video Machine is what we IBM users have been waiting for a
long time. But I wonder what will happen to Amigas. With the technology now to
do serious desktop video on MACs and PCs, will Nu-Tek be forced to give up the
Amiga platform?
PMFJI…
First of all, the Video Toaster is made by NewTek, not Nu-Tek. Nu-Tek is
another company.
Does that glorious Video Machine have optional rendering speeds exceeding
Cray 1 supercomputers? Does it have a paint program? Does it have at the
very least an equivalent to Lightwave? Can it dump animations to tape,
live, without the need of a single frame controller? Are the 200
transitions in 24bit colour and are they animated with alpha-channel
sounds? Does it have more than one 24 bit frame buffer? Does it have the
sheer number of dedicated 3rd party software and hardware? Does it
(efficiently) multi-task? Has it won an Emmy for revolutionizing
television? What's the price?
From what you've described of the Video Machine, it has little to be in
competition with the Toaster. Even if it had all of what the Toaster had
for features, NewTek is many man-years ahead with the technology.
As for the Amiga, it's still a superior multi-media product when compared
to the other platforms. There's no reason for NewTek to abandon all that
they've built, when they are doing VERY well with the Amiga platform.
I made this swipe at your comment, because your comments were not very
kind and inaccurate.
Video Machine sounds like it holds alot of promise for editing. For the
rest of we creative people, however, will take Lightwave and the Toaster
anytime. I would consider Video Machine for editing, if, and only if, the
evolution of the Toaster and its extras cease.
By all means, enjoy what you work with. We do. *B^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
Granted the Video Machine does not do amimation. For many people who have
wanted to work with the toaster but for one reason or another could not get
their hands on an Amiga, I think folks will utilize this system because the
platform is more accessable than the amiga, especially the PC. I think the
niche for the Video Machine will be production truck and field production that
in the past used to require a lot of hardware (audio mixer, CG, TBCs). Folks
said you could never any type of video production programs to run on a PC, and
if you can produce and edit video on a PC or MAC with the same quality of a
toaster, what advantage would the amiga have over other computers.
It all depends on how quality is defined. With the right hardware, you can
get broadcast quality on most platforms. So that part is moot.
If you define it as also how the output is enhanced with imagery, then the
Toaster still wins. The Amiga 4000 allows the Toaster to have exceptional
full-colour animated with sound transitions overlayed on video. The
Toaster and the Amiga have already entrenched themselves in the industry
and production with the tool is at an explosive rate.
I noticed that you are basing your opinions largely on the opinions of
video hardware retailers. Well, I hate to say this, being a consultant
myself, but they will tell you anything, to sell you their products.
Including such glib comments about their product being better than the
Toaster. Judging by the prices you quoted on the VM, their opinions are
ruled by the larger profit margin. Talk to actual professional Toaster
users instead of a salesperson, if you want the most constructive input.
The biggest problem with PC's are that most of them are clones and do not
always emulate the standards laid down by IBM for PC's. Hence, you can run
into alot of incompatibility hassles. Mac's are a better choice then a PC,
mainly because they have a more reliable OS and they don't have the clone
problem that IBM has. The problem with the Mac, like the PC, is that it
was not designed to be a multi-media/video machine.
The Amiga has the best OS (IMHO) because it has the best realization of
multi-tasking/multi-media/video on any personal platform, it has an
excellent ARexx scripting language that allows you to add many features
that software you are using might not have. It will also allow
applications to work together and use each other's features.
I attended a Windows multi-media show that had the #1 multi-media
executive from MicroSoft putting on a show for the attendees. It was
embarrassingly hard to sit through it and see this fellow from California
who couldn't get 60% of the cream of PC multi-media hardware and software
to run at all! Can you imagine our suprise when he resorted to asking us
how to use some Windows functions and eventually asking for help to get
the hardware running. Not to mention the large suitcase-sized encoder/
sync generator used to display the output of the PC on the video
projector. This stuff is top of the line for the PC and is tragic to see
serious attempts from such hype. Windows looks pretty, and that's about
all that I can say that was positive about it.
For the price of an Amiga 1200 and DPaint 4.5, what can you do with a PC
or Mac for video? Nothing. Period. An A1200 can output to video, right out
of the box. You can make and playback animations, titles and pictures
using just DPaint. You get 262,144 colours displayable in any of the
Amiga's low or high resolutions. All of the Amigas also have stereo sound
without having to get a soundcard first. It's in a chip. You don't have to
get another S-VGA card or 24-bit card, because this has all of the colour
you'll need to produce great video. So, even without a Toaster, the Amiga
kicks video butt.
I LIKE Macs alot for desktop publishing. It's their niche.
I LIKE PCs alot for having the best business software around. It's their
niche.
I LOVE the Amiga alot for having the best integral base for professional
video production. It's their niche.
Every Amiga critic since the introduction of the A1000 said it would die
within 6 months. Well, Atari computers have come and gone. The Amiga is
still here and still popular with creative people. The true innovations in
personal video production belong to the Amiga. Black Belt Systems was the
first to bring professional morphing to a desktop platform. The Toaster
was another first that left the other platforms in cold sweat. Hewlett
Packard, for example, uses the Toaster to produce their corporate videos
because the PC and Mac had nothing that was as versatile.
Video Machine, like I said, sounds like it has nice features. But it ain't
a Toaster and probably will never be. NewTek has alot of plans in the
works for the future improvements on the Toaster and because they don't
whistle blow what they're doing, it always gives them the advantage of
catching other manufacturers off-guard.
PC or Mac is more accessible than the Amiga? The Amiga/Toaster is being
used in countries like Poland. How inaccessible does it have to be?? When
you have a product like the Amiga/Toaster, people will go to great lengths
to get it. The Toaster has penetrated Japan's television market! How many
other American high-tech products can make the same claim?
Like it or not, the Amiga isn't going away anytime soon. Enjoy the Video
Machine.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
Vance,
VERY WELL PUT…..(message to harrison about the Toaster vs the Video
Kaching$$$$ (machine)).
% )
Burning the Midnight Toast
Patrick White
When I said accessible, I meant that it is much easier to find places selling
new and used machines. If you're really determined to get an Amiga, you'll
find one anywhere you live but with PCs and Macs you're never too far from
somebody selling them. In my experience with PC's I've had more problems with
IBM stuff than from the clones. The people I've talked to so far about the
Video Machine are vendors who sell professional equipment and also sell the
Toaster, and I respect their opinion. They've said that if your application is
straight editing and live-live/tape production, the VM matches the toaster.
However if you want to do amination or 3-D imaging, then the toaster is the
machine you want.
I guess why I'm so excited about the VM is that it is something that I (and
most other people I know in video) thought would never happen, that is
professional quality (or that matter, any quality video) on the PC. I'm going
to take a long, hard look at the VM and see what other people are doing on it,
and if I hear good things from them, I may get it. Thanks for the feedback.
I respect your choice, of course, and wish you total success with it. I
simply get irked when I'm told that the Amiga and Toaster are going the
way of the Doe-doe, just because some other new product is released. Like
the Toaster, VM will have to earn its stripes.
BTW, the $4500 for a Toaster, must have been referring to a decked out
Toaster Workstation. That is, an Amiga 4000 with Video Toaster card and
software installed, 200, or so, MB hard drive and 18 mb ram. In any case,
if you bought a Toaster card and software, you'd be paying $1869 in some
stores. Competition between stores might affect that price quote, too.
For the feedback, anytime. And no hard feelings, I hope. *B^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
If you get a chance to look at the video signal on a scope, please let us
know how it looks, their ads don't seem to claim a broadcastable signal,
but then again, they don't say they don't have one. The quality of the
Toaster's encoder and signal are MAIN selling points for many video types.
The VM is built in and for PAL. It doesn't work right for NTSC yet. Tech
support is a trans-Atlantic phone call. Anybody can do quality work even
with second best though.
For $10,000 I think you can do better. NLE is more realistic and for the
same money to boot.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Vance,
interesting message… but you forgot to mention a couple of points. Toaster
doesn't do PAL. If this Video Machine works in PAL and NTSC, the worldwide
accessibility factor turns to VM's advantage. Secondly, what about all the
editing-related functions Harrison listed? Like it or not, most people will
prefer editing functions over animated Kiki effects; this is one major point in
favor of most of Toaster's rivals.
Blaq!
But that's exactly my point. These other cards aren't even Toaster rivals,
since they don't have alot of what the Toaster offers.
As for the FAST Video Machine working in PAL, the Toaster may not have it
native to its board, but a card has been available for several months that
converts the Toaster's displays and output into PAL format. So, the
european market has already been opened up to the Toaster. I believe the
card will also convert to SECAM format. A VERY useful product for all.
It doesn't matter whether I like Kiki effects or not. The fact they are
there gives users more creative options than not having them. Besides,
custom animated transitions can be made by the user, too. That option can
be extremely useful, if that's something the user wants to try out.
The VM can do 'extremely' well in sales, but that will not affect Toaster
sales as might be believed. The main reason for that, is, most Toaster
users are buying the Toaster to use the Lightwave.
Having a system with absolutely everything, including A-B rolling editing
control, can be extremely limiting. I'd rather have a modular system like
the Toaster, which gives you a number of goodies to start with, and then
have all of that 3rd party support line of products for you to pick and
choose from to incorporate within Toaster control.
Like I said before, VM is a useful tool, but just because it's useful,
doesn't mean that the Toaster is supposed to disappear.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
> Besides, custom animated transitions can
> be made by the user, too.
I have T-Rexx and DPaint AGA and have created several new switcher transitions.
I have been unable to create any color effects (KikiBell Type). I have also
never attached a sound to a transition (Breaking Glass Type). If either of
these things are possible, please tell me what I need.
The transitions are created through Lightwave. If you wanted your own
Kiki, I'd imagine you'd have to do flat object wraps of several captured
frames of the subject you wish to use.
I don't have a Toaster handy here, but I had read about it being available
for T4000 owners. You might want to ask Erik Flom or other old hands of
Toaster users. My role is currently selling Toasters up here in Western
Canada, not using them myself. Hopefully in the not-too-distant future,
I'll have one on hand.
My boss is getting me involved in a new video production department of
Highland Grey Consulting inc. Currently, I'm blessed with Imagine 2.9, a
great alternative for users who cannot afford the Toaster, as yet.
The Question here is, How much does this "Video Machine" Cost and does it
work as claimed? Matrox Studio SOUNDS like a Great setup, I've seen their
Demo Tape, then I read LOTS of things about it NOT liking ALOT of
IBM/1Clones amd Costing $10,000(realistically more like $20,000) for the
BASIC system not including the Computer which they recommend you purchase
from them "To avoid Compatability problems"………….BTW The makers of
the Toaster are NEWTEK not NU-Tek, two different Companies.
the video machine set-up cost four grand with an jog edit controller about
another $500. it runs on a minimum 386 it requires a lot of memory…about 20
meg, but uses little hard drive space. the professional video stores selling
the Video Machine say its being used already by European broadcasters and say
if you budget minded, this machine is better than the toaster. if you're
starting from scratch, the toaster card is about 5 grand, a kitchen sync is
about $1000 each, a amilink a-b editor is about another two grand and a two
track, eight input audio mixer is somewhere between 1 and 2 thousand dollars.
you've spent about ten grand for a complete toaster suite where all this is
included in the Video Machine for less than 5 grand.
I wish you well with the Video Machine.
Harrison,
Believe it or not, the only motivation anyone on here has in recommending the
Toaster to you and others starting out in this business is to help _you_.
There is no possible motivation for anyone to blindly defend the Toaster or any
other product. Within the realm of 'normal' folks trying to get into the video
business, there is simply no comparison to the Toaster, and that is a fact, not
just an opinion. There is _nothing_ on the PC or Mac platforms that even comes
remotely close to competing with the Toaster's value-to-dollar ratio.
<< the professional video stores selling the Video Machine say its being used
already by European broadcasters and say if you budget minded, this machine is
better than the toaster. >>
What, pray tell, are they SUPPOSED to say, given the fact that the Toaster
dealers are their competitors?
<< if you're starting from scratch, the toaster card is about 5 grand, >>
No matter where you're starting from, the Toaster card and software sells
virtually everywhere for under 2 grand…
<< a kitchen sync is about $1000 each, >>
A Kitchen Sync is a board that contains 2 TBC's, and has a suggested retail
list price of only $1295…
<< a amilink a-b editor is about another two grand >>
That's about right. Or you might consider Future Video's new controller at
about $1300…
<< and a two track, eight input audio mixer is somewhere between 1 and 2
thousand dollars. >>
You need to call Musician's friend @ 1-800-776-5173. They'll send you a
catalog very quickly that will offer you a MYRIAD of choices to show you just
how blatantly incorrect this is…
<< you've spent about ten grand for a complete toaster suite where all this is
included in the Video Machine for less than 5 grand. >>
If you want to produce high quality video in an A/B roll setup on ANY platform,
you're gonna end up spending more than 5 grand. If someone is doing it for
$5K, politely ask them to send you a demo reel of work produced on their setup.
For the purpose of contrast, I'm sure several Toaster owners on these forums
would be happy to send you their demo reel.
BTW, I was, and still am, an owner and user of a PC-based Novell network. For
the things I use it for, it's irreplaceable. 18 months ago, I'd never even
touched an Amiga, and was extremely skeptical. Luckily, I heeded the advice of
many who had been in my shoes before, and made the right decision to buy a
Toaster setup. The PC-Mac world is still not even remotely in the same ball
park when it comes to video production.
With sincere best wishes that you choose appropriately,
Jerry
The vendors I've talked to are selling the toaster now and say that for
specific applications (editing, live switching, field and studio production,
the VM is equal to the Toaster, but for post production, particularly for
special effects and animation the toaster is a better machine.
I'll call your friend but I quoted my prices from the Allied/Harris catalog on
something small like the shure FP42, a 4 input field mixer. They listed the
Tascam M-208 8 input studio mixer at $1199.
I think the final factor on editing quality is the format used. Something cut
on a CMX and one inch or a BVW machine is going to look better than something
on high 8. Having the right decks makes a world of difference on how the final
product turns out.
I saw the latest edition of the Toaster being advertised for about $4500. Maybe
this was the combination of the Toaster and Amiga?
$4500 it's DEFINITELY a Toaster Card and An Amiga. The Toaster Card itself
can be had as low as $1869 with the current software.
noone in their right mind would advertise a product with an MSRP of $2395
for $4500 (cool new cars excluded), that is about right for a pretty
loaded system (Amiga and all)
>the video machine set-up cost four grand with an jog edit controller
>about another $500.
>the toaster card is about 5 grand, a kitchen sync is about $1000 each,
Speaking of the Video Machine, for $4,000 what do you get? Does this
include the PC and accesories?
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
(Any render time >0 needs acceleration.)
Guess What Tony, all this Time I thought Harrison's Video Machine was a
NEW product……. I just realized it's the FAST Video Machine.
>all this Time I thought Harrison's Video Machine was a NEW
product……. >I just realized it's the FAST Video Machine.
I new it was the Fast machine he was talking about but not having used one
myself I'd like to know as much as I can.
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
(Any render time >0 needs acceleration.)
it's the card and a box that contains audio, video and edit control input and
outputs.
>it's the card and a box that contains audio, video and edit control input
>and outputs.
So a computer, ram and HD is extra?
<<< Tony D. Tracer >>>
(Any render time >0 needs acceleration.)
yes it is. mac or pc with windows.
You left out some vital info…. How much does it cost?
its about 4 grand for PCs, a thousand more for Macs
Have seen a Toaster demonstrated?
Call 1-800-847-6111 at NewTek for a Free demo tape of the Video Toaster
3.1. It will blow your BNCs loose!!!
I've seen the Video Machine….the salesperson could NOT get it to run
properly..( I won't blame the complicated VM though.)
Try it (the Toaster), You'll Love it!! (IMBHO)
Burning the Midnight Toast
Patrick White
I have it and the Toaster is an amazing machine and it did blow my BNCs loose,
but sitting around here with all these PCs around me, I would always say "why
can't they make something like this for the PC.
I would find another dealer. If a vendor doesn't understand a product
forwards, backwards and sideways, they shouldn't be selling the product. The
VM dealer around here is also a Toaster dealer and they can virtually take
apart and put back together both machines.
Check into the Toaster more before you buy.
You'll be happy that you did.
BTW, there is an ominous rumor (rumor mind ya) that non-linear editing
from NewTek is around the corner.
NewTek is one hellava up and coming company. (I just wished that they'd
buy out Commodore.)
We need all kinds of computers, PCs, Mac and Amigas. But as far as video
is concerned the Amiga is capturing a unique niche in the DTV market. Use
you PCs for business that's where they really shine.
Burning the Midnight Toast
Patrick White
Video Toaster is $1795 and it works in NTSC. The manual talks about VCRs
that are not available in the United States. You still need $12,000 worth
of VCR's so you're not looking at the whole package. Newtek is on their
fourth revision, VM is a green 1.0. You'll be one of the few not using it
on PAL so it might be a fun challenge.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
I'd say it depends on how much the video machine costs. The Toaster is the
best bang for the buck that I've ever seen.
-Dave