#How good is the Amiga???
36 messages in this thread
Kelvin,
The A600 is nothing more than a scaled down version of the A500. It
has a smaller 'footprint' due to the loss of the numeric keypad on
the keyboard. Also, it is less expandable because all the chips
(except the ROMs, of course) are surface mounted to the motherboard.
The only advantage it has over the A500 is that you can mount a 2.5"
IDE hard drive inside the small case. In my honest opinion, I would
rather have an A500 over an A600, due to the hardware hacks available
(accelerators, video de-interlacers, AND hardware based PC
emulators). Now the A1200 is a different story. It contains the new
AGA chipset which offers all types of new video modes. You can now
display 640 X 400 images in 256 colors, just like SVGA. (Of course,
the display area does get a little bigger if you choose to use
overscan modes.) If you remember HAM mode (displaying all 4096
colors), the AGA chipset now has HAM8. This will display (I
believe…) 256,000 colors at a resolution of 640 X 400 (or bigger as
mentioned). The processor is a 68EC020 (32 bit) running at 14 MHz.
Not a big leap, but about four times faster than the original A500 or
A600. The A1200 is a new machine, so not too much hardware is
available (like PC emulators). There are already internal clocks,
memory expansion boards, SCSI interfaces, and 68030 accelerators
available. And just like new machines, you will come across some
compatability problems. The new OS and chipset doesn't like a lot of
the pre-2.0 games, although most application programs run fine. If
you have software from your A500, some might not work; but if you've
gotten fid of everything, anything new you buy will more than likely
work on the machine.
The Amiga may not have WordPerfect any more, but there are enough word
processors out to take its place. Comm programs are all about, even here in
the libraries. And the Amiga has SAS C programming along with other packages
like 'HighSpeed Pascal'. The new OS 2.1 comes with utilities to format and
read MS-DOS diskettes, but you won't be able to run them. There are some SLOW
emulation programs, but you best bet is to get a bridgeboard emulator of some
sort. These boards are built for 'expandable' Amigas, like the A2000, A3000,
and new A4000 (which also contains the new AGA chipset). Of course, one of
these Amigas along with a bridgeboard will start at double the price of an
A1200.
I've used a 50 MHz 486 with a graphics accelerator, and I'm also using an A1200
with just a SCSI expansion card and RAM. The 486 is nice, but with all the new
hardware comming out causing address and interrupt problems, I'm glad to have
my simple A1200.
Hope this helps, Keith
Thanks for the info. You've just confirmed my thoughts that an A1200 would make
a good home pc for me!!!
Concerning the Amiga 4000… what's the "general" price for one of those
things? I'm interested in getting out of IBM-land, but also want to go with a
high-end Amiga. I plan on continuing my multimedia work, and possibly add in
video processing (Video Toaster). I can't find any decent dealers here in
Houston, and I don't know how to go about finding a good national mail-order
dealer.
Dan
For Amiga video bundles (with or without the Toaster) I suggest you give
Safe Harbor Computers in Waukesha, Wisconsin, a call. They advertise in
the Amiga mags and have an 800 number. They are Toaster literate and can
suggest appropriate bundles depending upon your needs. And, they're cheap
and reliable. Never had a problem with 'em, and they're very responsive. I
go to their storefont, but they're also a national mail-order shop. They
also run Toaster workshops.
If you call Commodore in Pennyslvania, they'll provide you with an
authorized dealer list — perhaps one is hiding in your area.
You could get a nicely equipped A4000 base platform for under two grand,
plus monitor. You probably would want to add some stuff to it for video,
of course.
Also, prepare for patience; I'm told A4000s are in heavy demand and
back-ordered in most places.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
I guess they're back ordered because of the AGA chipset, right? Could someone
explain to me EXACTLY what that is? (Remember, I've lived in the "IBM World"
since 1984, and am trying to make the transition to a different platform [I've
done DOS -> Windows -> OS/2 2.1]).
I'll wait for the thing; that's not a primary concern (hell, when I ordered my
14.4k modem a year ago, it was backordered for three months.. heh).
Thanks for the information! I'll give them a call tomorrow. I want to try and
go mail-order, because we've got this outrageous 8.25% sales tax here in
Houston, and next-day shipping is almost ALWAYS half the sales tax on
high-price items.
Dan
AGA stands for Advance Graphics Architecture. It is the chips that give
the A4000 its graphic horsepower. If you want you can also add an 486SL
emulator and have IBM/Windows?OS/2 capabilty!
Mike
Dan >>I guess they're back ordered because of the AGA chipset, right?
Could someone explain to me EXACTLY what that is? <<
I'm assumming your refering to what the "AGA" is…..
The past Amigas have had a set of 3 special chips named:
– Agnus, (an Address generator)
– Denise, (display enhancement)
– Paula, (ports and audio)
Agnus & Denise work as a "co-processing" team handling the Amiga's
graphics. They can access graphic (& sound0 data directly without having
to rely on the CPU, then perform operations on the data, independently.
These chips do for Amiga graphics, what a math co-processor does for a
spreadsheet; or what a UART does for a modem. They take the overhead off
the CPU, allowing the CPU to handle other system functions and needs.
These custom chips and the CPU share a memory area which can be used by
both for storing data & running programs. This shared area is called
"Chip RAM", or graphics memory. The memory outside Agnus's address space
is called "Fast RAM" or system memory. The CPU never has to enter "wait
states" to take turns addressing Fast RAM, hence the name.
The first "chip set" is referred to as the "OCS" (Original Chip Set). This
set used a 16-bit path, handled 4096 colors, 32-registers for color, had
16-bit wide sprites, and could access only 512K of shared memory.
A pin compatible update called the "ECS" (Enhanced Chip Set), increase the
amount of shared memory it could access to 1 or 2-megs (depending on
computer model.) The ECS also added new resolutions, programable display
speeds, plus several other features.
Both the OCS & ECS were limited to 6-bitplane screens. This combined with
only having 32 color registers — limited the system to 32-colors per
screen using 5-bitplanes. When the 6th bitplane was used, the system
could use the extra bit for 32-real colors plus 32 "halfbrite" colors for
a total of 64. A second use of the 6th bitplane allows a compressed mode
called HAM (hold-and-modify) that allowed 12-bit color (4096) to be
displayed on screen using only the 6-bits.
The lastest chip set is the AGA (Advanced Graphics Architecture). These
consist of:
– Alice, (replaced Agnus)
– Lisa, (replaced Denise)
– Paula, (appears unchanged)
The AGA is now 32-bit, using four 16-bit paths (for 64-bit transfers) at
twice the speed of the OCS/ECS. The colors have increased to 16-million,
the color registers to 256, and the nunber of bitplanes to eight. The
Lisa chip, also has some built-in de-lacing capabilities. A new HAM-8
mode allows 252,000+ colors to be displayed using all 8-bitplanes. The
sprites can be 64-bits wide.
There are several other features to the OCS/ECS/AGA, but AGA is the
latest, most advanced, and has more features.
Ron.
– ap'ing with AP. (Eagles may fly, but weasels aren't sucked
into jet engines.)
AGA is "Advanced Graphics Architecture," the Amiga's version of
SuperDuperVGA, if you will. It's a set of chips (i.e., "chipset") on the
motherboard that gives you a 24-bit (16.7 million color) palette in all
resolutions. It provides a 256-color mode that is a good emulation of VGA.
The highest color counts are in a mode called HAM8 ("Hold and Modify 8
bitplanes," a hardware trick to display more colors with lower system
overhead). HAM8 on-screen display is limited to the number of pixels, so
technically it's not true 24-bit, but you probably won't be able to tell
the difference. An 800×600 HAM8 display theoretically could show up to
480,000 colors, as I understand it.
Commodore says later Amigas will contain improved AGA hardware that will
provide true 24-bit support on the motherboard. But AGA is very good in
its own right. Note that you CAN add third-party graphics cards to many
Amigas if you insist upon true 24-bit or 32-bit graphics now. But
Commodore hasn't released a "retargetable graphics" standard for the
system, meaning that not all software will take full advantage of
third-party graphics cards.
Amiga graphics are more tightly integrated with the system than are
graphics on an Intel-based clone, so using video device drivers for each
software package generally is not an option with third-party cards For
now, software packages have to be written to support specific third-party
cards.
A big advantage of AGA is that it pumps the data fast. You can do
high-color, high-res animations at large frame rates, and store
photo-quality HAM8 images in much less space than a 24-bit image (IFF24 on
the Amiga — geez, more alphabet soup!) will require.
Note that IBM compatible systems rely on the chunky pixel method of
displaying graphics, whereas the Amiga uses bitplanes. AGA supposedly has
the latent capability to handle chunky pixel, meaning that if it's ever
exploited, developers will find it easier to port VGA-based games to the
Amiga. The new Amiga CD32 reportedly can take advantage of this
capability.
AGA is also fully backward compatible with earlier Amiga graphics modes,
so older software generally should work, but will only display in at most
4,096 colors unless upgraded to take advantage of AGA. A lot of the better
productivity software and some games have arrived in AGA versions that
will take full advantage of the chipset.
Re mail order, I often do the same thing as you. I've ordered from other
states (including Texas) to avoid the 6% sales tax here! But some states
are trying to put a stop to that, forcing mail-order dealers to pass along
the sales tax.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Dan,
I would suggest trying to pick up a copy of AmigaWorld magazine at your local
bookstore. Many Amiga mail order businesses advertise monthly in the magazine,
all of them out to get you business. Let's see now… (digging out last
month's AmigaWorld…) the A4000 with a '030 CPU is running in the area of
$1550 to $1600, while the '040 version is at about $2300. (Keep in mind that
the '030 is the economy version, which means it does not include a MMU.) The
average price of an A1200 is around $500 (down $100 since its release half a
year ago). It's been a month since I got my last issue, so prices may have
dropped again.
Keith.
Okay… stupidity rears its ugly head… what's the MMU?
Dan
It stands for Memory Management Unit.
Don't worry about the MMU, Dan. Very little Amiga software takes advantage
of it. In theory, it would help protect programs running concurrently from
colliding. That may be useful if you're a programmer trying to debug. In
practice, the Amiga's OS is pretty good at this already. Macs use the same
CPUs and few of them use the MMU, either, and many of them use cheaper
Motorola CPUs that don't carry the MMU.
Someone mentioned the Bridgeboard. Also be aware you can plug in an
Emplant board to let your Amiga multitask a color Mac II inside a
Workbench window. Fact is, if you wanted, you could have all three systems
(Amiga, Mac and PC) simultaneously multitasking inside one box. Now
there's computing power!
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
The MMU _is_ used by MACs that are 32bit clean! And products like the
Emplant require that you have an MMU. That also applies to virtual
memory, and many other items.
-Jonathan
One more quick question… what are the basic differences between the 1200 and
4000? I was told that for expandability the 4000 was the way to go.
Dan
The A1200 has a PCMCIA expansion slot and less horsepower (68EC020) no
Zorro slots and the same graphics architecture. Definitely less
expandable.
Dan,
The MMU (Memory Management Unit) is the part of the processor which "sort of"
remaps memory. Moving the Kickstart ROM into fast RAM, along with virtual
memory control on a hard disk are two of its most common useages.
The main differences between an A1200 and an A4000: The 1200 comes in a
compact, A500 type case while the A4000 comes in a big, keyboard detached A2000
type case. The A1200 has one expansion slot and a PCMCIA slot (only RAM
expansion cards are available for the PCMCIA slot), while the A4000 has four
expansion slots along with an additional video slot needed for a Video Toaster.
The A1200 comes standard with a 14 MHz 68EC020 CPU while the A4000 comes with
either a 68EC030 or all out 68040 (both run at 25 MHz I believe). BOTH
machines have the same AGA chipset allowing the new graphics modes. As of this
moment, only the A4000 is PC hardware compatible IF you install a bridgeboard.
However, rumors of A1200 PC expansion cards have surfaced.
So, the A1200 is somewhat expandable for a low price. You have to pick the
best option which will suit you needs.
Keith.
So basically, if I want expandability (which is why I like the IBM so much), I
should go with the 4000.
I think I know what kind of system I want. Now the specifics… how much RAM
would you recommend? I would get 8 megs if I bought a new IBM, but I don't
have the slightest idea about how the Amiga uses memory (and how much it uses).
For a "power user", how much would you recommend as the minimum?
I'm assuming hard drive consumption is about the same with the Amiga as with
the IBM… I've got 360 megs on my IBM; I'm thinking 240 or so would be
adequate for the Amiga. (The bridgeboard option makes the 4000 a VERY good
idea; I don't want to give up my wordprocessor: AmiPro; I've been using it for
more than a year, and I'd never be able to switch now).
Thanks for the help/info!
Dan
The default RAM is 4MB. I'd Recommend 8MB also but you can put up to 64 MB
on the motherboard using 32bit SIMMs. At the same time you would be able
to use the same RAM for the bridgeboard.
———————-
I wish I had a 4000!!!
ON Autopilot from A500
Michael
Dan:
I've seen Amiga power users getting along nicely with 4 megs RAM. I happen
to have 11, but remember two things:
1. A couple of megs of A4000 system RAM is "chip" RAM — sort of a
superequivalent of the RAM that comes on a VGA card. Since the graphics
chips are on the motherboard, they need system RAM. The chip RAM also is
used for other things (managing sound files, for instance), and the Amiga
can even transparently press it into use for applications when "fast" RAM
runs low. But you really want to reserve chip RAM for graphics as much as
possible. Remember, since the Amiga multitasks, you can open multiple
screens on an Amiga (all one monitor!) and each uses up chip RAM.
2. The Amiga OS tends to use RAM more efficiently than other systems. The
operating system itself is in ROM, although up to 512K of it is loaded
into RAM on some systems to speed up I/O. Four megs can run MOST
higher-end software, like a top of the line DTP or 3D rendering system. If
you run one program at a time, that should suffice. If you want to be able
to run your word processor while, say, VistaPro 3.0 is rendering in the
background, you'll obviously need more fast RAM — say six megs.
If you're going to use a Video Toaster or do image processing or run
animations, you need all the RAM you can get, because imagery chews up
memory on any system. A 24-bit file is the same size, regardless of what
system you're viewing it on.
The main reason I have 11 megs of RAM (1 meg of which is chip RAM) is
because multitasking enables me to keep a bunch of handy utilities open
all the time. Therefore, I launch them from bootup. The more you get, the
more you want! As on other computers, the Amiga can never have too much
RAM.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Yick.. I don't want the 500-type case, definitely. I've been pricing the 4000
locally, and have gotten prices for the '040 around $2999 at the BEST. I've
been trying to find an Amiga World, but I have yet to find a place that carries
it – I'm going to have to venture out into the city to find a bookstore that
carries a more diverse set of magazines.
What do the 'base' models include? If I understand correctly:
'030 has 120 hard drive, 2 megs RAM
'040 has 120 hard drive, 4 megs RAM
right/wrong?
Dan
Good Lord, where are you? The local price of a 4000/040 here in LA is
$2395.
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
Karl,
That sounds like power up pricing. Dealer cost from major distributors is
HIGHER than $2395.
Have you tried to buy an A4000 lately? Quite difficult to find.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
My dealer has a bunch at the power up pricing.
-Jonathan
Well your dealer is lucky then. A4000s are on extremely short supply and
the Power Up program that was offered required the dealer to buy the
machines at a higher price and request the discount via a coupon, etc. It
was a real pain.
Who is your dealer?
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Yeah, I know. My dealer just got them back in. It seems some production
problems screwed things up, but they're here again. I'll check on that
price, it may not include the new chip prices.
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
Houston, Texas… there is only ONE local Amiga dealer that I've been able to
find.
How much are displays running for?
Which display? The 1942 is about $400.00.
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
Dan,
The A4000/030 has 4MB of RAM (two chip ram, two fast ram); the A4000/040 has
6MB of RAM (two chip ram, four fast ram). In my opinion, you will want at
least 4MB of fast ram to run a good size of the graphics programs on the market
today. You may need 8MB of fast ram if you want to get into ray-tracing and
Video Toaster software. If you're just going to run word processors and
spreadsheets, 2MB of fast ram seems to be enough. Now for the PC side: I've
looked into the Vortex 486slc bridgeboard and have (to the best of my
knowledge) some comments. This particular bridgeboard comes with 2MB of RAM
standard and can be expanded up to 16MB (four SIMM slots on the board). It
seems that four megs of memory on this card can be addressed by the Amiga,
however the card can not address additional Amiga memory for itself. It also
seems to be the better choice (over the Commodore bridgeboards) because of
better software installation and 3.5" drive useage. However, this little
package will cost about $1,100. (Anyone let me know if I've over-guessed the
capabilities of this board…) Decisions, decisions…
Keith.
My local dealer is selling the 4000/040 version for less than $2400 !!
-Jonathan
How come I'm seeing some people say there's no way this price is possible, then
I'm seeing others say it's VERY possible? Was there a special pricing program
from CBM that is causing such a great disparity in prices?
Dan
There has been some special pricing from Commodore. Sounds like you need
to do some more shopping around.
-Jonathan
What places would you recommend for Amiga? I heard BriWall was good, but alas,
they are no more. Any suggestions? (Mail order beats this stupid 8.5% sales
tax!)
dan
I think Briwall went bellyup… I would go to a local dealer even with
the sales tax if you can find a good local one. Tell us where you are
located and maybe someone can point you in the right direction if there is
anyone near you.
-Jonathan
You have only one internal expansion slot and a PCMCIA port on the A1200.
Also, a cut-out for an external SCSI controller if you're not satisifed
with the internal IDE controller. If the A1200 follows the A500 pattern,
third-party outfits will offer various kinds of expansion boards that fit
under the A1200 hood, directly into the motherboard. I've seen A500s that
were heavily expanded with huge amounts of RAM, accelerators, etc., all
tucked under the case. I don't know if the A1200 would accept such
after-market cards, however, since its motherboard components may be
surface mounted (can anyone else confirm this, please?).
The A4000s carry a number of slots (I forget how many; five or six)
including several ISA-compatible slots if you install a PC Bridgeboard.
The 4000s do NOT have a PCMCIA port, however. The 4000s also have video
and CPU slots, the former for desktop video or graphics expansion, the
latter for improved processors. The A4000's 68040 CPU is on a card in the
CPU slot, not on the motherboard, for easy changeout.
While the A1200 has a less capable 68020 processor, there are already
accelerator boards available to take it up to higher speeds. The '020 in
the Amiga environment is no slouch, however.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)