#Amiga CD32
41 messages in this thread
Speech systhesis??? Ooooh! that'd be a cool add-on for an Amiga.
Just think of all the neat stuff you could do if the Amiga could
talk. ;^) By the way I've had Amigas since 86. :^)
Can the sarcasm. THe Amiga 4000 and A1200 and also Workbench 2.1
don't have the Speech Synthesis that was an integral part of all
previous Amigas. So the news of a new an improved speech synthesis
program for the Amigas is significant.
and you can sh*tc*n the serious attitude, dude. I've had Amigas
since they existed and before that almost every model before. I'm
quite disappointed that CommonWhore can't seem to find their *ss with
both hands. You may consider the news of a new speech synthesis
program significant, but I have no such consideration.
Why did these machines even ship without a speech synthesis
program? Three different scenarios present themselves with respect
to a new speech synthesis program. One: Commonwhore will provide it
free to purchasers of the most recent machines. Yeah, right, and I
have a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale, cheap. Two: The next
update of Workbench will include the speech-handler, at extra cost of
course. This is the most probable scenario. Three: The new
speech-handler never appears. This last scenario is all too likely,
given the previous track record.
I can use the sarcasm, dude, 'cause I've been here a long time,
period.
If you, or another individual here, has a problem with it, tough.
Frankly, I keep my expectations very low vis-a-vis CommonWhore. So
far as I can tell, keeping my expectations low since '85 is the only
survival technique in this market. Anything else will be a very
pleasant suprise, but I wouldn't put $1 on it, even if you paid me.
New machines stopped shipping with speech synthesis because of
licensing problems. (The people who wrote them insisted that they
continue to get $1 for every disk shipped and that was simply
unacceptable — on something with the margin of a CD32 or an A1200,
paying even $1 for software royalties makes a big difference.
Shipping one extra disk makes a big difference.)
The install program doesn't delete the speech software, so you won't
loose it if you already have it. If you have an A4000 or A1200, go
buy a $5 1.3 enhancer kit and copy speech from it if the old speech
is really that important to you.
Perhaps more importantly, the speech was lame. And few people ever
used it, other than as a novelty, probably because it was lame. DSP
based speech, for example, would be much more impressive *and*
practical. Whether or not new speech is released, it isn't that big
of a deal that new machines don't ship with the old speech. Yeah
it's a pain, and yeah, maybe Commodore could have found a better way
to deal with it, but they did put quite a bit of effort into trying
to renegotiate or into an alternative, and they just couldn't make
anything happen.
1 – An enormous number of people used the "old" speech technology.
2 – For that 1$, they could have left off quite a bit of *garbage* that is
still being shipped with the system. Examples from 2.1: "edit", which no
one but a very rare unix dinosaur will use (and as you point out, they
already HAVE it). Like: "MagTape" which could just as easily come with an
HD install disk. You get the idea. Speech was more valuable, on a byte per
byte basis, than all of these taken together, in my opinion – which I
think represents the majority here. It's also not clear that the speech
"cost" an extra disk, not at all in fact.
3 – Lame or not, it *worked* and it was very handy. Amiga users
weren't auditioning for the Toastmasters; we were using it to get
information from programs which were running on hidden screens or
with no other output, and a substantial number of handicapped people
were also using it… the potential for more was there too, until the
Big Stupid decision was taken.
4 – new speech technology that uses a DSP is a joke – why? Because
there IS no DSP available. As per usual, CBM hasn't come up with the
promised hardware, period. When and if it ever shows its face, it
very likely will not work in some or all of the installed base.
Software-only (or at least, software plus *basic* Amiga hardware)
based speech has the value that it promotes continuity among all the
machines. That was a value in and of itself; as a developer, one
could count on the narrator etc "being there" and you *knew* you
could use the thing. The more the Amiga market diverges, the less
constant the user base is and the more strain is felt by developers
who try and reach into the dusty corners and get as many users as
possible to use a particular product. Advances – like AGA – are
easier to swallow; and DSP based speech _if there was such a thing_,
might reduce this to a quieter level of grumbling. But AGA machines
are *very* backwards compatible – if a developer decides to write to
6-bit HAM displays, it'll work on a 1200 or 4000/xxx. If a developer
decides to write for the (mythical) DSP-based speech, it'll only work
on specific machines – and here, my opinion says that almost no one
will write anything at all with it in mind, if and when it ever sees
the light of day which I quite frankly have serious doubts about
given the current publicly known situation at CBM. I know we have NO
intention of doing anything in particular with DSP based speech from
CBM.
Yeah – it's a pain. CBM is a pain. To say the least.
You just svaed me a ton of text. Thanks, and well said. I have
several customers that bought the Amiga *because* of the speech
capability. You guessed it, nearly blind user.
It's just too bad I had to say it at all.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I think Dale said that an extra buck royalty was the problem, not the cost of
the extra disk. But I agree wholeheartedly about the piles of crud on the
AmigaDOS disks. It smacks of evidence of a lot of inflated egos who want to
spend time on their pet project, and demand that it belongs on an OS disk.
Gak. And for CBM to harp on and on about gadget tool libraries and GUi
standards, and then to ship monstrosities like IconEdit…
Nah, IconEdit isn't really a monstrosity. HDBackup — THAT's a monstrosity!
Oh really? You like IconEdit's interface? Tell me how it's compliant with
what CBM recommends. Tell me how it resembles any other menu- or icon-driven
program you've ever seen, on any platform.
And the previous version of IconEdit doesn't count as an example. 🙂
I think he's refering to the fact that there were even worse examples than
IconEdit. Compared to HDbackup, IconEdit *is* great. 🙂
What the heck is wrong with IconEdit?
You're saying HDBackup is better?
Denny,
It sure is easy to drop an icon in the ICONEDIT window and change it to work
with 2.0. I use it all the time when I need to take a pseudo WB icon and make
it permanent. I don't use it for much more than that but I think it is useful
enough to include it.
Chris
Chris,
actually, an easier technique is to get MakeReal from the libs here and
drop it in your WBStartup drawer. Then you only have to select the icon
and select "Make Real" from the tools menu. Far easier.
Brian
The interface is abyssmal. It makes no sense. The menus are scrambled. It's
the perfect Amiga program. 🙂
As a proud owner of Interchange+ v2.0, I can only say:
"You're one to talk about following Amiga guidelines!"
(True, you're program is 1.3 compatible, but for god's sake give us 2.x or
greater people a _real_ version of the program – one that uses real file
requesters and some kind of standard interface. :^)
Sorry, I just _had_ to butt in here, :^)
Erik Flom
Not just iconedit – they pushed and pushed and pushed for standards,
pushed and pushed gadtools, then barfed out "ToolMaker", incomplete,
crippled by many standards, certainly nothing you could build a moderate
sized application with.
Dale did mention an "extra disk" in his message; as well as the extra
buck. The buck would have been VERY well spent, as far as I'm concerned.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Yes, but it's clear that if they deleted Memacs and a dozen other monstrosities
from any disk, there'd be plenty of space, and let's not forget that the entire
translator/speech files do not consume more than, what, 50K?
A grand pile of misdirected effort. Sad but true. More sad considering CBM's
limited R&D budgets. Toolmaker was done by a third party, no? They just threw
cash at someone. Similar to the way that a half-dozen Svengalis have milked
cash from CBM for wacky hardware projects like CDTV. They're consuming valuable
time and resources working on
Yeah, I think Toolmaker came from elsewhere… but I'm not certain. Could
be like AmigaGuide, where it was done outside first, then brought inside.
Either way, Toolmaker is pretty weak. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Toolmaker is from outside. I think it started as something else first,
maybe GadToolsBox?
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Dale,
No GadToolsBox is written by Jan van den Baard of Jaba Development and
in my opinion runs circles around any other interface design tool for the
amiga.
MikeM:) "Amiga means never having to say you're sorry!"
I mentioned "extra disk" only to say that the manufacturing/sales people
are so sensitive to costs that even an extra disk sends them into a tizzy
— a $1 licensing fee really gets em going!
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Dale: is that why CBM itself charges a *$3* licensing fee for CD32 disks? More
than enough to get me "going". –Redmond
I don't know anything for sure about licensing CD32 disks. It may be that
there are some licenses it is just passing on, it may be that they are
selling the hardware at a margin that wouldn't turn a profit without them
making some money on the software. It's a lot better than the rates you
have to pay Nintendo…
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Why, they increased the royalty in order to attract new developers. Can't you
see the logic in that? 🙂
Well, GEE, if they made it a 100 percent royalty, maybe then EVERYONE would
support it, huh? Do ya think?
😎 –Redmond
Aha. I took it wrong, then. To releive the pressure that the 1$ licensing
fee caused, they should have just gotten rid of the marketing types. They
never did anything worthwhile anyway, as far as I can tell. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Actually, they did both. <G>
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
I agree with you 100% on the speech thing and I even have another
program that can be kicked off the workbench disk; HDBackup. Most of the
forum members who have tried it regreted using it. I only use the speech
for fun but it's a shame it isn't carried on 2.x/3.0.
Oh yeah… HD backup. Another fine piece of almost-ware from CBM.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Oh, come on, maybe it's not up to snuff (I've never even tried HDBackup,
AmiBack is what I use right now) but, have you tried to use the PC BACKUP
program? Now, there's a not-even-close-ware program!
My 2 cents…Robb
If you're not going to try it, then take my word for it. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Robert,
I tried HDBackup and the only thing it managed to do was convince me
that I needed a REAL backup program. Ye gawds, it couldn't even recover
anything useful.
Brian
HD Backup was contracted out. Somehow, Commodore's legal department never
seemed to be able to write a contract that required quality or completion,
but it did seem to be able to include enough other annoying clauses to
keep many good developers from bothering to develop for Commodore 🙂
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
I can attest to that one, Dale. ! –Redmond
I too regret trying to use HDBackup. I found it *really* silly that a backup
program which comes bundled in with OS 3.0 and my Amiga 4000 can't make use of
High Density diskettes… <sigh>
I would never have considered trying it except that my primary backup program,
Quarterback, *also* doesn't support the High Density diskettes (at least for
the version I have, which was the latest when I got it back in April…), and I
had a ton of HD diskettes lying about at the time I wanted to do the backup.
Does anyone know if they've upgraded it for the HD disks yet or not?
–>Steve Bennett
QB told me to put the progran on a HD disk since it looks for the same
kind of disk as the original. It works, I have QB5.04 think…look in
Amigavendor lib….hay, you're a sysop. you should know all this <;^}>!. I
have backed up to HD disks. I don't want the backup or tool program on my
HD since it would be useless if I have a HD problem & have to use them.
Gracia
Steve:
Try putting a formatted HD AmigaDOS disk in your 4000 _before_ invoking
Quarterback. (That's how I get my 3 yr old version to recognize HD
Floppies….)
Erik Flom
Quarterback backs up to HD floppies just fine. Just put the s/w on a
Hicap disk.
-Jonathan
Why can't you use HD disks? AmiBack supports HD disks, but there is a
trick you need to be aware of. Make sure that you have one in the drive at
the time you start the backup procedure. AmiBack (and presumably other
backup programs) can't tell that you have an HD drive unless an HD disk is
inserted.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
1 – They can keep using it. Again, installing 3.0 doesn't remove it from
your HD if it is already there, and nothing is preventing you from buying
a 1.3 or 2.0 enhancer pack which has speech and copying that to the HD of
your 1200/4000.
2 – Edit and MagTape are free (except for the space). Speech was licensed
at $1 per set of disks shipped. That makes the equation *very* differnt.
3 – They can keep using it.
4 – We all need a good laugh once in a while.
Mind you, I'm not saying that I completely agree with the decision, I'm
just trying to point out that, like usual, there is more to it than most
care to know.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.