#R4
26 messages in this thread
O.K.,
Let's try to get a handle on the R4 product.
a.) There's a new version of 3DS coming out in the next 2 to 3 months. b.) This
is alot faster than the standard 18 month cycle. c.) There'll be an upgrade fee
of $295 from R3 d.) The Yost Group did some internal changes into the code, but
the vast majority of the features in R4 are supplied by 3rd partys. (A huge
break from the traditional Adesk/Yost Group SOP) e.) They're showing off the
new release at Siggraph, months before it'll ship. f.) It appears that this is
setting a major precedent for Adesk/Yost Group and we are now witnessing 3DS
becoming a totally modular program. g.) No announcements have been made
regarding recompiling for other operating systems or Pentiums, so it's
obviously not happening in this release, if at all.
Now the questions:
1.) Since Gary listed the IPAS routines as part of the feature set of R4, does
that mean that we'll get a number of boxes from the various authoring
companies, including the IPAS routines? 2.) Who will provide the support for
the various modules of the product? 3.) Will the end user be faced with various
upgrades from the various authoring companies or will all upgrades be attached
to upgrades in 3DS itself?
Paul
The big question still is: Who wrote the plug-in routines and will the end user
be affected in any way (positive/negative) by this ? I'm thinking the YG or
parties on contract to them developed the supplied R4 plug-ins. Is it a fact
that Schriber is developing the Puppeteer M/C s/w AND IK (in which case you'd
have to assume the IK is that referred to in the R4 spec's), or is there
perhaps confusion – and they are only developing the Puppeteer s/w ?
Puppeteer?? Please help me with this term.
Thanks.
Mei-Tien
I believe this is just a product name for their motion capture software.
BILL
Bill,
Thanks.
Mei-Tien
Puppeteer is a full motion capture interface and motion data path editor built
into its own module like the 2D Shaper or 3D Builder. You can build your own IK
or use data capture from Flock of birds. You can also import Wavefront motion
data files with meshes so incorporated among other useful features. For more
information contact Schreiber Instruments at 1800-252-1024.
-JE
<< Puppeteer is a full motion capture interface and motion data path editor >>
<< You can build your own IK or use data capture from Flock of birds. >>
<< There are going to be reasons to have both, and they will compliment each
other. >>
Traditionally, you'd have to build the IK skeletonal links & hierarchy, define
joint constraints, friction, etc. *_anyway_* – then assign sensor data to
appropriate joints. I can see IK as necessary or desireable with a M/C system.
Other than M/C being your desired application, what reason would there be to
have both ? And how will they compliment each other ? Are you saying that the
data structures for both systems is the same ? That would be a huge coincidence
or either indicate they've worked together on this. And if that's the case,
then I back to being a little puzzled again. If the IK system in Puppeteer is a
superior implementation, then I question the choice of IK as a provided
plug-in. Hopefully, as a "pure" IK system, the YG's will be much more robust.
If not, then I'm still puzzled – and I don't see how they will be
complimentary products unless they were a cooperative development. A quality IK
system is still very rare and difficult to produce, so I am surprised that 2
appear at the same time.
BILL
What I saw with Puppeteer is that it consists of a suit with hardware motion
sensors to do the data capture or you can input data motion sets and apply to
the geometry. This has nothing to do with the Yost IK module which allows you
to, eg. pick up a mesh's hand and pull it in different directions to establish
the heirarchial movenent of the entire arm and the keyframes. It was my
understanding that Puppeteer and IK are two different, independent products by
two different companies. I have the demo version here but haven't had the time
to load it yet. Schreiber was handing out puppeteer on CD-rom.
I was basically interested in the bundled R4 plug-ins and core code changes,
how they worked, etc.. The textual descriptions sound very good, and thre's
really a bunch of changes there *_besides_* the plug-ins themselves…. Wish I
could have been there. Were you able to get your hands on R4 or otherwise
comment in more detail wrt the above ?
BILL
>>>A quality IK system is still very rare and difficult to produce, so I am
surprised that 2 appear at the same time.<<<
IK seems to be migrating to the "lower-end", non-SGI systems finally. Newtek
announced Ligthwave 4.0 for SGI & Windows 3.1/NT at SIGGRAPH and it now
includes IK among other features.
I said *_QUALITY_* IK system <g>. As I mentioned in my other message to you, I
just heard about the Lightwave NT shipping too. I haven't used Lightwave in 2-3
years, but I know a few people who really like it. Is their IK system
well-implemented ?
BILL
JE,
Thanks a lot!
It seems impressive.
Mei-Tien
Mei-Tien,
>> It seems impressive. <<
I think so, and when you combine the features of R4, I think there's good
reason to be excited. 🙂
-JE
<,The big question still is: Who wrote the plug-in routines and will the end
user be affected in any way (positive/negative) by this ? I'm thinking the YG
or parties on contract to them developed the supplied R4 plug-ins. Is it a fact
that Schriber is developing the Puppeteer M/C s/w AND IK (in which case you'd
have to assume the IK is that referred to in the R4 spec's), or is there
perhaps confusion – and they are only developing the Puppeteer s/w ?>>
I don't know, or am not allowed to reveal, who wrote each individual plug in.
However, everything was written under the Autodesk umbrella.
I don't have any information on the Schrieber IK plug in module. I do know (at
least have heard) that puppeteer is something completely different, and
requires special software and hardware that is not part of R4.
-Brian
Thanks for jumping in Brian. If indeed Schrieber has developed an IK system
*AND* the YG has as well, that would really surprise me. Know what I mean ? I
don't think IK would be one of the included R4 plug-ins if Schrieber was
developing IK as well. Of course, you can look back historically at the two
both producing fractal-based procedural tree creation routines – but seems like
this is a bit different, seeing how the IK routines ARE PART of an upgrade to
3DS. But one would certainly want to know if another party is developing a
similar package as that which comes with the upgrade package for R4.
Personally, I hadn't heard of an IK system being developed at Schrieber, only
the Motion Capture system – but I don't get out much either <g>.
<< I don't know, or am not allowed to reveal, who wrote each individual plug
in. >>
If the latter, this would seem unusual – historically.
Anyway, thanks for revealing what you can.
BILL
<< If indeed Schrieber has developed an IK system *AND* the YG has as well,
that would really surprise me>>
Well, as I said, I don't know anyhing about the Schrieber IK program. If it
exists, I would assume they are significantly different. But as I said, I have
no information.
<,If the latter, this would seem unusual – historically.>>
It's a question of what information I have at hand. Gary and/or Bob could tell
you whatever they want. I can not.
-Brian
No problem, it seems to be cleared up now. Thanks.
BILL
Bill,
The Yost Group is doing their own IK system as is Schreiber. The reasons are
fairly straightforward. The emphasis with Schreiber is on motion capture and
editing although you have the ability to build it from scratch. The Yost Group
will have to give you details on the specifics of their system.
There are going to be reasons to have both, and they will compliment each
other. Much like Photostyler and Fractal Painter. I'm really not in a position
to elaborate further.
-JE
Paul:
Where did you come up with the idea that the various "plug-ins" of r4 are by
3rd-parties? I didn't see that anywhere in Gary's message or in the press
release in the library. I just understand it as, "for this release, instead of
doing little alterations to every bit of code, we just added these features
using the extensibility we built into the program in the first place, as well
as doing some things to increase that extensibilty."
Dave
David,
I think the general vein of the conversation centered around whether the IPAS
programs were written by the Yost group or a 3rd party. There exists a certain
amount of confusion due to the fact that R4 has an IPAS IK and there are two
different companies showing off IK based IPAS work. Shreiber is showing off
something along those lines there. I have no idea which way they're going with
this. I was simply trying to find out who wrote the routines and how they were
going to be supported. Adesk made a big push to integrate IPAS into this show
and virtually every aspect of the features in R4 parallel IPAS products already
under construction by 3rd parties. Sooo the question was who wrote the
routines, who is going to support them, and to what degree are they going to be
integrated into the package.
I take it you believe that the routines were all written by the Yost Group? If
so, that is exactly what I hope.
Paul
Of course, by now, this has mostly been answered. This also shows why Danny
Mercurio had to put his metaball modeler on hold (to do the bezier patch
module).
Really, as the Yost Group (as I understand it) is basically a virtual company
(ie Gary essentially contracts with his programmers as opposed to them being
traditional employees), whether the individuals were Yosties BEFORE, or just
ARE NOW, shouldn't make too much difference.
As long as everyone works together and communicates, I don't see a problem.
I suppose the only concern would be, were the routines bought whole, or
developed in a cooperative way. If whole, then there could be unforseen
shortcomings/limitations.
As fanatical (in a GOOD way) as Gary is about the quality of 3DS, and it's
continued success, and his general vision for this product (wait! Am I talking
about Gary or Gates?<g>), I seriously doubt that he has jumped into ANYTHING
that would compromise 3DS's quality or integrity.
Dave
Dave,
PMFJI, but after coming to, I found the press release a little confusing
too. Is Gary talking about seperate plug-ins or new features included with R4?
Maybe I'm still dizzy…..
HH
Just take deep breaths and eat a couple Town Topic burgers. Then, swear you'll
never drink again. (or were you referring to being excited by the r4 info?<g>)
How goes it KC-way? Done any more modelling w/ the blob program?
Dave
Dave,
Blob, blob, blobbin' along.
<<Now the questions:
1.) Since Gary listed the IPAS routines as part of the feature set of R4, does
that mean that we'll get a number of boxes from the various authoring
companies, including the IPAS routines? 2.) Who will provide the support for
the various modules of the product? 3.) Will the end user be faced with various
upgrades from the various authoring companies or will all upgrades be attached
to upgrades in 3DS itself?>>
1. R4 will ship in one box as a complete package just like any other release.
It is just like any other release.
2. As it is an Autodesk upgrade, Authorized Autodesk dealers will be providing
support just like any other release of the software. Dealers will of course
have Autodesk Product Support and this forum as resources as well.
3. As this is an Autodesk product, I assume all upgrades will be from Autodesk.
This is all information as I have it today.
-Brian
Paul:
Please see my other message. Basically, R4 will ship with a number of IPAS
routines that were written by or for Autodesk/Yost Group. They are part of
R4, not add-on software provided by third-parties. All of what Gary
announced will ship with R4.
In addition, there have been a number of companies here at Siggraph
announcing development of R4 IPAS add-ons. The third-party market for 3D
Studio is about to heat up significantly.
As for Shreiber, they did not develop the IK in R4. They have an
R3-compatible IPAS called Puppeteer.
David
CADalyst