#IPAS Copy Protection
20 messages in this thread
It has been very interesting reading here for the last couple of days. IPAS
development, software distribution and copy protection are very interesting
topics. I've wanted to start a thread like this for a long time but have held
off for political reasons. Now that it's been done for me, and just in case
anyone is interested in another view from a 3D Studio developer… here's two
cents worth.
I'm the president of Digimation. We specialize in 3D Studio development. It's
not a sideline. 100% of our revenues come from 3D Studio products. Whether they
be video training tapes or IPAS routines. Five families (with very hungry
children) depend on this revenue. I mention this so that you can appreciate our
position on distribution and copy protection.
First, let me say that other large companies (and you know who you are) are NOT
grabbing up all the good IPAS routines. Presently Digimation is shipping
Bubbles, Magic and Mirage. According to Gary Yost and many others, Mirage was
the hit of Siggraph. Next month we'll be releasing Bones, the skeletal
deformation tool for 3D Studio and the 3DS Power Utilities. Before the end of
the year we'll be shipping several other major IPAS routines. Every IPAS being
designed and developed is being done so to take full advantage of IPAS3 (and
beyond) functions. Including 24bit animation and still previews for our Video
Post routines (like Mirage) to full color Gouraud shading previews in our PXP
routines (like Bones). By the time 1995 hits, I predict that Digimation will
have more IPAS expressly for 3D Studio 3 and 4 than ANY other vendor.
Digimation does NOT believe in copy protection. We do not and will not
resort to Macrovision to copy protect our video tapes. We do not now
or ever plan to copy protect our IPAS software. I am not being naive.
I know for a fact that copies of our products are circulating around.
This may or may not mean lost revenues, we'll never know. However, I
believe that our first priority is to the 3D Studio user that lays
down his/her hard earned money to purchase our product. I have to
believe that there are enough legitimate users out there to support
us. If I didn't believe that, then I should find a different market.
There are probably four types of users out there. 1. The user who
needs a product and buys it. 2. The user who gets a copy of a
product, uses it, decides he likes it and buys it. 3. The user who
might have bought the product but got a copy, decides not to buy, and
4. the user who never would have bought under any normal
circumstance.
Our products are tools. And as such we have an obligation to provide
the very best tool possible. Our job is to make sure that each
product we release is worth more than the asking price. One of the
ways we do this is to make sure that our friends (i.e.: legitimate
customers) are not burdened with needless hassles over copy
protection. Our idea is if the product is incredible enough it will
turn some type 3 users to type 2 users. So far we're doing OK.
One thing I know for sure, when you call us we'll be friendly and
informative. After the sale we have terrific tech support. If you
don't like a product we've developed we'll gladly take it back. My
point is you can make a living selling top notch products for 3D
Studio without copy protection. I believe the Pyros and Yost
routines also prove my point.
OK that was more than two cents worth…but I feel so much better.
David Avgikos – Digimation
David:
/_____________From your message_____________\\
OK that was more than two cents worth…but I feel so much better.
_______________________________________________
I feel so much better, too. When a company like yours responds to customer
requests and needs it makes me wish to do more business with you. Its nice to
know that you are listening. FWIW We (ASOFT Forumites) could benefit from
Digimation's active presence here.
Bob
Thank you for a well reasoned and articulate message! As a customer it is
refreshing to be treated as an ally instead of a criminal. The folks in favor
of copy protection seem to think that simply possessing a program will enable
someone to become an instant expert, exploiting it for maximum gain at their
expense. The idea that someone can sit down and learn a complicated program
like Puppeteer without manuals is asinine.
It all boils down to the market – who will buy these programs? My guess is
that the vast majority of customers are like myself – professional folks who
are looking to complete jobs the most efficient way possible. I, for one,
don't have time to scam copies of software even if I wanted to (which I don't),
let alone time to hack around on the system to make it work. Reasonable
companies such as yours, Yost's, and Pyros' understand this and trust us.
Thanks.
I simply hope that economic Darwinism will force the over-paranoid companies to
reassess the way they're doing business. Cheers, John
Thanks for posting that….I completely agree. Having followed this
cat & mouse protection scenario since the early 80's, it's my opinion
that if an individual *_really wants_* to get an illegal copy –
they're going to…. Just as if a car thief really wants your car,
no anti-theft scheme is going to stop him. I have started to jump
into related threads before too, but also didn't for similar reasons.
But, I could cite numerous horror stories in the past where
protection schemes (especially dongles) have caused great grief in a
production environment. At one time I had about 15 dongles that
needed to all work simultaneously…..I never could get them to work
together.
After a couple of deadlines blown because of this, I was forced to
start buying a bunch of those s/w unlock programs, which cost as much
as $400-500 apiece at the time (several years ago). That really
Pi**ed me off AND helped keep the folks in business who make it
possible for someone to MISUSE the intent of the unlock s/w (read:
use it to steal s/w).
I realize there's a lot of ways to look at this problem, and I
believe the problem is a little different depending on whether the
s/w is an expensive major core application – or a plug-in
application. Realistically, it seems that the best protection in the
latter case is to merely provide quality s/w at a very reasonable
price – and I believe Digimation has done that.
For example, Bubbles & Magic are very nice routines, and are only
about $60…..what motivation is there for either the s/w unlock
developers OR individuals to crack or steal this s/w ? Very little.
Your philosophy is by far the most sensible for the end user, and if
it works for you as the manufacturer, then I applaud Digimation for
taking such a positive stance.
I pay for my software and commit to the terms of the usage licenses.
In exchange I expect to enjoy unobstructed usage and flexibility.
Well Said David!
Murph'
I read your thread on copy protection and I think that you are
absolutely right. I also wanted to ask you something about Bones. I
was told by someone at Digimation that I was going to be sent a copy
of Bones to Beta test it and I never received anything.
Can you please let me know what happened? I have beta tested for
several companies including Fractal Design and Microsoft, and I
believe that I could be an asset to you guys in the development of
your IPAS programs.
One more thing…. How exatly does the deal work for someone making
an IPAS routine that wants to sell it through a distribution channel
such as yours? I am building a couple of Plug-Ins, and Max Hoffman
at Autodesk spoke to me about you guys and Shreiber for
distribution. I would like to know how this kind of deal is worked
out. My questions are somewhat specific:
1-How does one price the Plug-In?
2-How much will you sell it for after the price is set? Do I regulate that?
3-How long is the contract for?
4-What kind of revenues are projected for the creator of the Plug-In,
Short-term, and long-term?
I thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and to respond
to my questions. Please let me know.
Sincerely,
Alex Karamanoglou
Network Graphics & Animations
(305) 865-0081
Thank you David.
I heavily indorse your products and business philosophy. I recently
purchased your Magic and Bubbles IPAS and find them very well done.
I like your catalog and hope you continue to expand your product
line. Lavina was most helpful in finalizing my decision to buy. You
have won me as a future customer! I'll Be Back!
David,
Is it possible to get a catalog, and how much does magic sell for?
Roger D.
It's not enough to simply categorize the four basic types of users (1 – buyers,
2 – pirate-then-buyers, 3 – simple pirates, and 4 – steal-everythings). A
developer needs to assess the relative size of each of those categories and
judge how this affects the bottom line. By your own description, half of the
categories describe people who don't buy software.
I think many computer users (including developers) are members of more than one
of these categories, so perhaps these aren't useful guides. When these four
categories complain about CP schemes, at least three of the four groups have
their self-interest at heart: no CP means they'll have more software to steal.
Groups 2, 3 and 4 are at best hypocritical and at worst, cheats.
It's very easy for a developer to be very upset that people are stealing
product, both in an ethical sense as well as a business sense. I'm sympathetic
to these concerns. (How to act on them is another question.)
I think people steal software because they *can*. Although it's impossible to
know the true size of these four categories, by your own measure, at least two
of these four groups will pirate your product and not buy it, *only because
they can*.
Obviously, they do find the money to buy *hardware* – they simply decide not to
buy *software*. (When was the last time you met someone who copied a $400
software program, versus the last time someone said they were going to steal a
$400 modem?)
For the record, Syndesis has never had any form of copy protection. (Back in
1987, for few months, we did serialize executables just to be able to track
pirated copies, but we realized that was futile. Even if you know who's
pirating, there's little you can do.)
Personally and business-wise, I find efforts against piracy to be far too
draining and all-encompassing. Dongles cost too much, have too many risks, and
even a Schreiber-like scheme takes a long time to develop and support. Every
tech support call becomes a police interrogation. Every CP scheme has its
drawbacks.
The only clear advantage is to the developer, although some fuzzy second-hand
benefit trickles down to all users who can rest assured that the company is
actually being paid for the software in use, and might use it to improve the
product, the staff, etc. as opposed to developers who simply hope that
categories 1 and 2 outweigh 3 and 4.
I wish more category 2, 3 and 4 users would consider the effect of their
actions: Imagine if some percentage of their customers had a scot-free method
to get their services yet avoid payment. Imagine if that's 1 of 10, 2 of 10,
or 5 of 10 customers, and you'll understand why piracy hurts software
developers.
I wish computer users were as indignant about piracy as they are about copy
protection.
John:
I'm trying but I don't quite understand your position.
/_____________From your message_____________\\
It's not enough to simply categorize the four basic types of users
_______________________________________________
Why not? What categories would you like to add?
/_____________From your message_____________\\
I think people steal software because they *can*.
_______________________________________________
This needs some explanation as I *can* do alot of things yet I choose not to.
Maybe you mean 'because they *can*' = 'because it is easy.' If so I think I
understand.
/_____________From your message_____________\\
(When was the last time you met someone who copied a $400 software program,
versus the last time someone said they were going to steal a $400 modem?)
_______________________________________________
Obviously a physical object would be noted if missing. A copied/pirated piece
of software can leave the original owner no trail of evidence.
/_____________From your message_____________\\
Imagine if some percentage of their customers had a scot-free method to get
their services yet avoid payment.
_______________________________________________
In architecture this is called a "Design Competition." A company asks for
several firms to submit design proposals for their new building stating that
they will hire the firm with the most agreeable design solution. What they
often do is hire one of the lower cost firms and try to get them to synthesize
the other's entries, or hire nobody as they were looking for a free feasibility
study to find out if they could actually build a new building, or hire nobody
and turn the design over to their in-house staff to copy one of the submissions
and the list goes on. My point is that WEASELS ABOUND!
Bob
I meant these categories aren't very useful in terms of drawing conclusions
about the problem at hand. Once you've made the categories, you need to assess
their relative sizes, in order to effectively judge how piracy or CP might
affect sales. Without that, you haven't really advanced your knowledge of the
problem.
As an architect, you can choose whether or not to participate in "design
competitions," and you don't give out electronic versions of the blueprints, do
you? With software sales, it's tough to decide whether or not to sell software
to someone if you think they're a pirate.
In the software business, those fishing expeditions are called "request for
proposal." Silicon Graphics just played a round of that with us regarding 3D
file format translators.
Weasels abound, indeed!
John:
To not participate in a design competition can be a significant limitation to
your market. Some competitions, if won, bring a tremendous amount of publicity
and hopefully new work. Its almost impossible to know for sure which
competitions will yield this benefit. To even enter a competition you often
have to be willing to work on the design for free for several weeks in the hope
of winning.
Electronic copies of 'blue prints' are zinged around the globe all of the time
and you've hit on a topic that stands the hair up on the back of my neck.
Pirating of plans is a plague and scares me. Facility Managers, furniture
dealers, manufacturers and contractors all think nothing of passing around
disks of electronic floor plans when the data is copyrighted to the architect.
Modifications can and have been made causing serious problems and soon we will
hear of deaths caused because of some unscrupulous person editing an electronic
shop drawing which altered the strength of a material and caused a building
collapse.
We do RFP's all the time but we are often asked to take it a step further and
actually show a partially finished product for evaluation. Since work in
architecture is extremely scarce there will always be a number of us willing to
gamble away a few weeks of work in the hope of getting a year's worth. The
fact is that there are way too many of us architects for today's construction
demand.
Bob
Bob:
>> The fact is that there are way too many of us architects for today's >>
construction demand.
So some of us are doing other things these days… :^)
I hear you on the design competition. When a client gets your blueprints, the
design can be used by anyone. It's the old "instrument of service" philosophy,
and it can be difficult to copyright an idea for a design! At least in the
software biz, they can't just duplicate your efforts from a photo in a
magazine!
Greg Pyros, AIA
Greg:
/__________From your message___________\\
So some of us are doing other things these days… :^)
__________________________________________
I've taken your lead my liege. 😮
Here's some irony for you. I've been at the CG stuff for only a couple of
months although my interest has been building for years. In all of the time I
slaved in the trenches of architecture my design input was fairly limited
(except for the 2 years with Philip Johnson – the guy let me have some fun).
Now that I spend my days cranking out animations, presentations and digital
hokus pokus my design input is quite high. You know how those odd details show
up when you've modelled a space in 3D for the first time. So I get to see
these things first and therefor get to offer a solution right away. 3DS has
extended my work days to 12 hours but its almost always fun. I couldn't say
that about checking shop drawings or coordinating an MEP set.
Bob
Bob:
The true designers will always emerge…
Greg Pyros
B/EXIT
Hi John,
I didn't want to over simplify things by lumping people into four groups. My
intent was to say that there are people who will buy your software and people
who won't. People who will copy your software and people who won't. Our
position at Digimation is that there are enough type 1 people who will buy the
software that we make for 3D Studio. Therefore we can make money making 3D
Studio products. To me, key code copy protection on inexpensive (less than
$500) software says that the manufacturer doubts that there are enough
legitimate users out there. Then again, it's one guys opinion. Like I said
before, I only have direct control over Digimation products and right or wrong,
Digimation products are designed for the honest user.
David – Digimation
P.S. Are you going to Autodesk Univ.? I hope to see you there. If you don't
have a booth lined up, come and hang with us! ?EXIT
Lest I sounded too pessimistic, keep in mind that my policy about copy
protection is, in effect, the same as yours. In the long run, I'll get more
sales by offering a solid product at a good price, and giving tech support and
making new products that meet customer needs.
So Dave does this make me a .5 type?
Kenneth W. George
BRAVO! Well spoken. Thank you for your efforts.
Bill.