CompuServe Thread

#World Builder

9 messages in this thread
#184265From: Mike KelleyAug 10, 1995 12:28 PM
I'd like to repost this message here, since most of the folks who would be interested in this product would use 3DS (as opposed to AAS, where this message was sent originally — I for one see this as either a very useful addon for 3DS, or a complete waste of money)). ******************************************************************************* ********* I'm sure we'll all be interested in your postings (well, those of us unfortunate enough not to be able to get to SIGGRAPH) but I have a particular interest I hope you (or someone else attending) can help with, concerning the World Builder software by Digimation. I sure hope someone reliable can give us a hands on report on this (very) expensive product. In particular, I have three questions I doubt I can rely upon Digimation to give me an answer: 1) Is it worth it? Specifically, does spending all this money really buy a (fairly) easy to use landscape generator? The examples I've seen are impressive, but nothing I couldn't do using 3DS, _given the time_. To me, the key is how quickly you can do something with this product compared to 3DS. 2) How well does it integrate with 3DS? The biggest problem with VistaPro, IMHO, is that you can't really import the landscape into 3DS — too many polygons, and I don't see how WB can overcome this problem. Yes, I see I can bring 3DS objects into WB, but I want to use 3DS superior renderer and environment. 3) Can you make anything other than a "typical" earth-type landscape? Does the grass always have to be green, do you have to have grass at all, can the atmosphere be yellow or green, how alterable are the plants, etc.? For this price, I would expect a lot of variations possible, yet so far everything I've seen looks like terra firma. Any light (not heat) shed on this will be helpful for those of us homebound.
#184299From: Terry MillerAug 10, 1995 6:24 PM
Mike, I've been looking for an excuse to get the bikes on the road anyway. If you can make a list of questions you want answered, I'll ride down to Digimation and check it out. If they will be willing to spend the time to give me a demo, which I'm sure they will. I'm pretty new to all this, so give me some good questions, and any examples from other programs that I could make a comparison with. If you think I'm too new at this to give you a good report, don't be afraid to say so. I'm not the sensitive type.<g> But, let me know, I'm willing to try and help. Terry
#184306From: Mike KelleyAug 10, 1995 6:51 PM
>I've been looking for an excuse to get the bikes on the road anyway. If you can make a list of questions >you want answered, I'll ride down to Digimation and check it out. That's very gracious, Terry. I'm assuming you live in N.O.? Or close thereby? I think my original three questions are all I'm interested in, and are fairly self-explanatory. Basically it boils down to: 1) Why use WB when I can do the same thing in 3DS? The answer, of course, is that it's supposed to be easier, but how easier? In a demo, I would assume you can answer this yourself by sitting down and trying to create some fairly nice, specific scenery. Try to get a certain mountain or perhaps the area surrounding your home. One thing products like VistaPro do well is create random scenery. I'd want to know just how hard it is to create *specific* scenery, stuff that you control. 2) Can the scenery be easily integrated into 3DS? For this I would take the above scenery you just created and import it into 3DS. If you run into polygon limits (which I would suspect) I'd give my nicest smile to the Digimation folks and say, "Hey, for $1500 I've got a standalone program like VistaPro?" Their answer is bound to be that you can import 3DS objects (and even cameras) into WB, but there's a big difference — WB can't possibly render as well as 3DS and that's not the way we'd like to go. 3) Finally, I'd want to see if you (Terry) could sit down and design some scenery that wasn't so earth looking. Say pink skies, green atmosphere, purple grass and aqua trees, for example. If WB is truly WB, then it should do this with aplomb. Otherwise, it's only eB (earth Builder). If you could help me with any or all of the above (or anyone else has this kind of feedback) I'd sure appreciate it. (Or maybe my bank book wouldn't!).
#184463From: Dennis FenskeAug 11, 1995 3:19 PM
Mike; I saw WB at the ASOFT party. I cannot answer all of your questions, but I did see them bring in some grass, and make it red. I believe you can make anything, any color you want, and the palette is infinitely adjustable. If you are not aware, the price for WB at the show was $995 for a limited time. As far as integration into 3DS, I asked that, and their was some hesitation. Kind of like, "Well, you could to this, or you could do that, or you could do ??? I am not sure of the answer I really got. You will need to wait for others to answer. I hope this helps, Dennis
#184494From: Mike KelleyAug 11, 1995 6:21 PM
>As far as integration into 3DS, I asked that, and their was some hesitation. Yeah, this worries me, and is kind of what I expected. For such an expensive product, I would think 3DS integration would have been a priority. But thanks for the feedback. Overall, were you impressed with the quality, compared to what we've come to know and love with 3DS?
#184502From: Dennis FenskeAug 11, 1995 7:25 PM
Mike; >> But thanks for the feedback. Overall, were you impressed with the >> quality, compared to what we've come to know and love with 3DS? The image they were working on looked great! It appears that you can work on part of your image at a time, so when you make changes, it only updates the part of the screen that is changing. I don't really know how they are doing it, but they said something about a Z buffer. Again, I didn't get all the info, but apparently you can make the grass "blow in the wind". And also do fly through's. One person stopped by to congratuate the author on the tutorials. Apparently there is a "Demo" of how each (or at least some, I'm not sure) selection is used. If that is the case, it would help the learning curve immensely. That's about all I know. Dennis
#184658From: SEAN PLATTERAug 12, 1995 9:27 PM
Mike, as to your questions regarding World Builder from Digimation/AnimaTek. It's A LOT better than Vistapro! (Mucho mas bucks, too!) It looks like 2 of your 3 questions have been answered already, so I'll try to answer your third. I spent some time w/ David A. from Digimation as he demo'd WB at SIGGRAPH. The question came up in the crowd about integration with 3DS animations and here's what was demo'd/said : WB has the same "Merge" diag. box that 3DS does (it includes Objects, Lights, Cameras, Animation). When bringing in objects, it brings in ALL the object's material settings, too. WB's materials editor is the same -button for button- as 3DS r.4. So you get all your textures and subtle settings. Because WB generates outdoor scenes,they added a "Parallel Light" to its light settings to simulate sunlight, which has all the color controls our regular 3DS lights have now. One downside, WB's renderer does not support IPAS routines. So any effects would have to take place elsewhere. As for scene import/export, there are 3 basic ways to do it. I'm sure there are more if you get real creative! First, you can render your imported animations directly in WB. This can be done two ways: if your animation paths do not rely on the landscape's geometry, you can animate it all in 3DS and import your cameras, objects, and animations. If your animations depend on the landscape, WB can export scenes/specific objects as DXF files (with parameters for mesh detail -I think-) and animate in 3DS, then import cameras, objects, and animations back into the official world in WB for final render. OR—- you can generate a landscape in WB, save as a .3ds file, open in 3DS itsself, and then render. The problem with this method is that you will loose the objects that WB created with fractal methods. These include: grass (you will only get the simple mesh spikes used to spawn the fractal grass), water (you get the surface, but not the waves or refracted reflections), some other fractal plants (the majority are meshes -I think-), and the skys with fractal clouds (which could be rendered in WB and used later as a background element in 3DS.) OR—- You can render the scene in WB, asking it to save the Z buffer info. Then, once in 3DS, you load the WB scene in Video Post and do your final render with 3DS honoring the Z buffer info generated by World Builder. Digimation has an animation of a T-Rex walking thru grass that was animated this way. You can see its toes rendered thru the grass as it stomps around! As far as creating wild abstract worlds go, WB can handle it. I have been wanting a copy of KPT Bryce since it shipped, but HSC doesn't seem too interested in doing a PC version. So when I saw images for WB, I thought this might be my answer. So I have been doing some serious comparisons since then and WB is looking like the winner! Especially since it is currently shipping (Bryce isn't out for Windows yet), it does animation (we will have to wait for Bryce's Pro version), it imports 3DS objects/scenes, and it cost's the same as Bryce-Pro will (whenever it ships). In order to create some other-worldly scenes like Bryce, WB has the tools to do it. All the geography is made of simple splines. You can alter the sample scenes that come with WB, or create your own wild landscapes like in the demo renderings from Bryce. WB uses texture maps and bump maps to do most of it's detailing – so covering a mountain with 'happy faces' is possible . . . or pulsing blue veiny things . . . or plaid . . . or – you get my point! <G> You can also import ANY object as a 'plant'. David A. imported a cow and WB randomly placed it all over a landscape! Instant herd! The scale on any object can also be changed to create some Dali-like worlds. The skys are a combination of Vistapro-like cloud commands and 3DS color choosers so you can make stormy Mars skies or beautiful Earth sunsets. As you can see, I'm pretty sold on it! And I just recieved a note from a dealer that has a special on it (until AUG.18th!) for $135 LESS than other specials. The dealer's name is Michael Cortese at CIS# 71035,743. I'm calling on Monday for mine! Did I answer your question? This post is so long that I hope so!!! Sincerely, Sean Platter
#184773From: Mike KelleyAug 13, 1995 5:03 PM
Thanks so much, Sean. Yes, I think you've answered just about all, particularly 3DS integration (so very important to me — 3DS is my reason for living). The only one that no one addressed, exactly, was how difficult it was to create the landscape according to precise requirements. I'm not talking accurate detail here — I just mean if I want three mountains ranged in a certain area, with a river that curves more or less how I have in mind and trees on just one side of one mountain am I looking at days worth of work, assuming it's possible at all? I realize this sort of question may not even be answerable from someone who's got the product, but it is in my mind (particularly for this price). I'm really glad you mentioned KPT Bryce — that was also in my mind, and also thinking about Windows version. In any case, your enthusiasm for the product is contagious, and the odds are likely I'll be calling Monday as well (well, Tuesday. Monday's are absolutely impossible for me at work!).
#184776From: MARTIN G FOSTERAug 13, 1995 6:05 PM
Sean, it was good to see you again at Siggraph, Sean! I had a few comments on World Builder. It looks pretty promising but I saw some problems / limitations and until users get their hands on it, other limitations won't be made known. The lack of animatable weather is a major limitation. The pre-alpha version of Bryce (Pro) we used for "Virtuosity" had this and it was very cool (although a bit hard to control). Yes, animatable weather with time of day and clouds, wind direction. This is just such an obvious thing to do, I'm not sure why nobody has done it yet for 3ds. The other thing, which may be a bug/may be inherent, was that the landscape would "pop" as it changed detail levels. Grasses in the foreground actually disappeared (or clipped) entirely before they were out of view. Details in the mid-ground made perceptible shifts. I suspect (and hope) that these problems have been or will be fixed. Most clients would find that unacceptable. Did anybody ask about sample rendering times or network rendering capabilities? I suspect these may be issues. How about motion blur? I'd rather have this than field-rendering, but I may be in the minority there. I didn't have chance to ask these important questions. On the good side, the material created represented imagery that would be difficult or impractical to create in 3ds and had a pleasing story-book quality that was rather un-CGI-like — more like matte paintings, IMHO. In fact, that's probably the way those type of scenes would be done – as matte paintings, possibly mounted on "cards" or hemispheres to simulate parallax and volume. Martin