CompuServe Thread

#SEYBOLD

9 messages in this thread
#12941From: Scott R. LeyesSep 24, 1989 9:39 PM
Warnock's annoucement was fantastic and exasperating at the same time (fantastic 'cuz it means type 1 fonts will become a real standard, exasperating because I had to completely change the "Font Wars" presentation I gave Saturday to the PPA). The announcement caught everybody off guard (at least a little). I'd heard plenty of rumblings over the past couple of months (and mentioned it at least once here), but I think it got a little rushed by the Seybold conference and the latest Apple/Microsoft dealings. URW/The Font Company, for example, had already "cracked" the type 1 encryption scheme (at no small expense, I'm sure), and have alreaday written software to create "type 1 compatible" fonts (which they showed off at Seybold)…NOW they plan to take an extra couple of weeks to go back and make any changes necessary to insure that they are creating TRUE type 1 fonts, using the promised information from Adobe (this throws off their release schedule, though). Actually, if you really want to see the complete poop on PostScript, you'll probably see it in the upcoming "Gold Book" first (being created by the SPSS -the "Society of Page Specification Standards", I think). Adobe seems to be cooperating with the idea that PostScript needs a more formal definition, and the Warnock announcement is a large part of that.
#12970From: Jon HodgesSep 25, 1989 10:47 AM
It would be a blessing if Adobe cooperates with SPSS. Prior to Seybold, I was envisioning three PostScript standards — Adobe and their licensees, SPSS and their clone cohorts and whatever Apple/Microsoft decide to do to interface Royal with PostScript. At least getting the clone world and Adobe together would make it possible for PostScript to continue as a "standard". If Adobe and SPSS shows a united front to the Unix world and the makers of high-resolution imaging machines, Apple and Microsoft are always going to have to maintain some compatibility, no matter how far they stray on their own platforms — they'd be slicing their throats if they didn't. I worry a little about Apple. Big Bad Bill Gates could chew Sculley for lunch if Apple's not careful. What was the word at Seybold? Who did participants think got the better end of the deal in the Apple/MS announcement?
#12994From: Steve WernerSep 25, 1989 9:19 PM
I also hope that the SPS Association (you and Scott put in an extra "s") and Adobe can get together. I was at the SPS Association meeting on Thursday night. It now includes about 70 major companies including many of the biggies (Aldus, Linotype, Agfa Compugraphic, Microsoft, Xerox, etc., etc.). The SPS leaders were genuinely happy about John Warnock's announcement the day before about opening up Type 1 fonts. I heard on Sunday a rumor (yet unconfirmed) that Adobe was going to be opening up more to the SPS Association. If the two can get together in some reasonable way, we stand a very good chance of forging a single industry-wide standard. And that should make all us PostScript service bureaus very happy.
#13009From: Jon HodgesSep 26, 1989 12:49 AM
At the New York PostScript User's Group meeting on Monday night, the two Adobe reps said they had no word on SPS membership. I keep getting the feeling that Adobe feels that if it throws open the full specifications on PostScript that everyone will feel so grateful that they'll allow Adobe to continue to define the standard. The rep said Adobe hopes to use its developers' conferences as places to discuss and define new specs for the language. Hopefully, they'll realize how important it is in light of the Apple/MS alliance that the PostScript world speak with one voice and get on the SPS bandwagon. The worse case scenerio: a world with Adobe-defined PostScript, SPS-defined extensions, MS/Apple-defined PostScript clone and the Royal font rendering technology. That prospect was making several service bureau managers shudder a bit. Lot of questions raised. Will Apple continue to issue and administer the NFNT numbers? Will Apple customers let Apple back off from its earlier statement that it would develop a utility to convert Royal fonts to PostScript (which they reneged from at Seybold)? Will Adobe fill that void, since the Royal font technology will supposedly be open? Hang on to your hats, folks, the next few months could be bumpy.
#13021From: Scott R. LeyesSep 26, 1989 3:54 AM
Adobe's alread announced that they will NOT be offering an "easy" way of converting Apple's Royal fonts into PostScript (a turnaround from their position last May). If Apple's going to play dirty, then Adobe's not going to make Apple's life any easier.
#13017From: Scott R. LeyesSep 26, 1989 2:16 AM
John Warnock seems to be the one in all this who is trying to "do the right thing"…he knows that if he doesn't open up "true" Adobe PostScript, the whole page description arena will go to hell, with infighting, hundreds of standards, and nobody winning in the end. PostScript is a good thing, and Warnock wants it to continue to succeed. What Adobe's lawyers & "suits" are thinking is another story, I'm sure. You're probably right about the three standards emerging (if Adobe Doesn't open up PS). Now, there will be only TWO standards (PostScript -vs- "AppleScript"). I'm not certain what to think about Apple's impending PostScript clone, but I'm pretty certain it'll have some MAJOR incompatibilities and problems, since Apple has never been a company willing to play by OTHER people's rules (they have their own (inferior) versions of Adobe screen fonts, they don't follow standard SCSI protocols, their video standard is off the wall, etc, etc.). Views from my end tend to be "it don't taste like nothin' 'til it gets served up". We've only seen a few of the ingredients at this point, and haven't had a chance to stick our fingers in and taste a bit. This whole AppleScript business could end up being a bit like Airline Food — You can live on it, but it tastes like sh*t, and (unfortunately) it's the only thing you can get while you're on the flight.
#13024From: Jon HodgesSep 26, 1989 10:41 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. However, I think you're letting Warnock off the hook too easily. If he had thrown open the standard a year ago, this whole Royal stuff probably wouldn't have happened in the first placed. Of course, I'm sure the economics of opening PostScript is driving the "suits" crazy. The PostScript licensing fees for both the RIPs and the font encryption have to be a tremendous part of Adobe's income — which they now stand to lose. The Adobe rep I heard last night said Adobe plans to stand on its software produ cts and type sales. Obviously, the type library is being challenged by URW, Bitstream and others. As far as the software, I've been playing with a beta copy of ATM and the only program it won't work on properly is Adobe Illustrator (I know, it's unfair to report a beta bug, but that one strikes me as really strange). My concern is that someone has to fill the void being created by Apple as far as determining PostScript-compatibility. It's always been what will run on the latest Apple Laserwriter. Someone's got to say, "here are the benchmarks that a RIP must run to be certified compatible with SPS/Adobe PostScript Version 60.0 or 70.0 or whatever." If it's Adobe, the clone guys will scream. If it's the clones, Adobe will probably be upset. We need an independent group. How about PPA? Any takers?
#13028From: Steve WernerSep 26, 1989 12:09 PM
After the SPS Association meeting I went to on Thursday night, I'm convinced it has to be Adobe working with the SPS Association to develop a PostScript standard. The SPS Association includes many Adobe licensees, it's not just the "clone people." BTW, it's not really surprising that Illustrator should not work with ATM. Illustrator has always used a unique way of writing the screen (a modified form of display PostScript I've heard). It doesn't use the standard Macintosh font calls. An free upgrade for Illustrator is promised for next month, at the same time that ATM will be released.
#13061From: Mike ConteSep 26, 1989 11:33 PM
I think your rose colored glasses are clouding your vision: John was the guy who first put PostScript in the public domain, and then, several years and several hundred million dollars later, tried to take it back, and finally settled for some goofy free licensing agreement with either very odd or very sinister intentions. He was also the guy who copy-protected Adobe fonts to the printer ROM, so you couldn't output on someone else's printer or take yours in for service. Later he charged $40 per set to unprotect them. As for his indignation and surpise over the Apple/MS agreement, I hardly think it's real or warranted. Apple has talked about their open standards since last year and Adobe hasn't moved to address those concerns, even after others had cracked Type I. Now that he has reneged on his promise to convert the Adobe library to Royal, Adobe's future has dimmed even further. Quite a rhetorical feat, by the way, to turn John's newly broken promise into an example of Apple's "playing dirty." What promise did Apple break? Apple licensed those fonts from Adobe. Apple was the first mass-market implementer of SCSI and, yes, strayed a bit but have come back in line with emerging standards. You seem quite forgiving, on the other hand of Illustrator's rather comical incompatibility with ATM. Oh, and remember NFNTs? the format Adobe waited until the last possible minute to support, depsite rampant font ID conflicts? Remember Illustrator's odd incompatibilites with Jasmine hard drives? Sigma displays? It's intentional incompatibility with the GCC Laser Printer and other QuickDraw-based printers? And there is nothing particularly odd about Apple's video. It's quite nice, actually. The Bauer clone that Apple has gotten from Microsoft is compatible with (a superset of) Postscript – and if Adobe opens it up in '90, there is no reason to think Apple will diverge from Postscript. I love Illustrator and outline fonts…but I won't miss Adobe's prices or attitude. The bottom line is: when Apple and Microsoft and IBM get behind something, it's going to happen. Adobe should quit mourning the death of the golden goose and become the world's best type vendor. The market just quadrupled in size – they could own it.