#Development on CD32
19 messages in this thread
Aside from games, what would be the best way to develop an interactive
multimedia CDROM for CD32. I mean typical CDTV type things such as
educational or reference products or games that aren't dependent on fancy
programming (Where is.. Carmen Sandiago type entertainment).
Would it be best to start from the ground up with C source, or perhaps
AmigaVision Pro or Helm or inbetween with basic type languages (Director,
AMOS, etc.) Are authoring packages good enough for large & complex
applications?
Thanks, Andrew
Helm, Amigavision Pro or Scala would be good choices. The latter two, at
least, have direct CDTV support built in.
My main familiarity is with AV Pro, and I think it's up to the task as you
described it. It includes a decent database that's dBaseIII compatible,
which simplifies the process of keeping large amounts of alphanumeric
information stored in useable form; just run up the data in any
dBase-compatible program and import it to AV Pro, then it's easy to link
to graphics, sounds, etc through the screen designing functions. AV Pro is
a relatively easy way to write a very formidable, interactive, multimedia
database application that can be delivered via CD-ROM to Amiga platforms.
It can make your application look very fancy without fancy programming
(e.g., touch screen capability, "hot" spots accessible via mouse clicks,
speech synthesis, audio/video playback, hypertext links, etc.). I'm very
high on Amigavision Pro.
In theory you should be able to write your application to a large hard
disk and then just ship it off to a CD-ROM pressing plant (I think there
are 2-3 places that specifically handle CDTV format and now probably CD32
format, but you need a Commodore license to use the format).
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Ron,
Thanks for your response.
I figured that AVPro would be acceptable because, afterall, it was
developed for that. I've seen some impressive presentations done with it
(usually on '030s) but I was I was wondering if the quality would be
acceptable on the lowly CD32 ('020 & only 2 megs). I was also concerned
about the complexity of the applications: does performance suffer as
complexity increases? Are hypertext links a special feature to AVPro (as
with Helm) or simply buttons with Hilited text. Oh, also will the Pro
verion read 1.5 version files? (So many questions, so little processing
power 8^), here's some more…)
Is Scala capable of being distrubuted? I understood that there was no
freely (or otherwise) distributable runtime player. Do they now have one?
Also, can one create complex applications with Scala?
One further question, if you don't mind please, the client who I am trying
to get information for wants some form of full motion video (quarter
screen is fine.) How good are 1200s or cd32 at doing that?
Thanks for your time.
Andrew
Since I haven't seen a CD32 I can't say what an AVPro performance using it
would look like, but you would be able to use AGA graphics. I think you
need around 4 megs RAM to make full use of AVPro in the development mode,
but it will run on a system with as little as 2 megs. I don't know of any
problem loading flows from older AV versions.
The right tool for the right job. AVPro is a good all-around authoring
system with some powerful features. I wouldn't say AVPro is a hypertext
processor, since everything is object oriented. You can create a text
"glossary" that will bring up a short definition of a word. You can use a
text-variable or text-window object to create text-based display objects
that will react to mouse clicks or whatever, but that doesn't seem as
straightforward as using, say, Hyperbook or Thinker if you're creating a
text document to browse. Then again, you probably can call up Thinker or
Hyperbook from within AVPro to do something specialized like that. There,
perhaps, comes the complexity vs. system performance you were asking
about.
For hypertext, Helm seems more suitable — it's sort of like Hyperbook on
amphetamines. Meanwhile, AVPro's graphical, interactive database functions
are quite powerful. So if you intend users to access info in a more
controlled way, AVPro is perhaps superior.
The CD32 is a double-speed drive, capable of twice the loading rate of
CDTV. CDTV with its CDXL extension can handle quarter-panel limited-motion
video (HAM mode at around 15 frames per second). I suppose CD32 could
double that speed and increase the color and resolution. It will also,
however, offer an optional MPEG module for full-motion full-screen video
with apparent VHS quality. Since CD32 can read CDTV discs, one probably
could program an application that either was upwardly or downwardly
compatible (ie., lesser graphics if the disc is inserted in a CDTV; but I
don't know for sure if it's possible to program dual format (CDTV and
CD32) on one disc.
Helm was getting rave reviews over on GEnie for its simple to use
interface, AGA support, CDTV hooks, etc. I've seen a demo and it indeed it
looks nice. And it's cheap — only around $130 retail.
Scala is dongled, so to play back a Scala presentation, you need a legal
copy of the program on every computer. Very annoying, but the company is
gearing it to kiosk and broadcast use, so for many users that's not a
problem. AVPro has a freely distributable playback module, as does Helm.
On the other hand, Scala is quite powerful; again, less suited to
hypertext than for interactive presentations. You can do a nice menued
touch-screen presentation, for instance. I would say making a really sharp
looking presentation for little effort is Scala's strength; it's easy to
get rolling.
Gold Disk's Showmaker was pretty nice in many ways as a Scala alternative,
but apparently is discontinued, or least development is frozen. Its little
brother, MediaShow, is available for around $60 and is an easy way to
program a quick video presentation. I've used it for titles and transition
effects and it was very easy to operate; uses the same timeline-based
metaphor that Showmaker has. Again, not really useful as a hypertext or
database tool; its forte is elsewhere.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Ron,
Thank you for your comments, I'll pass them along to my partner.
I picked up Helm at the competitive upgrade price of $89 although I
haven't done anything with it yet. I expect it will likely be my
development application (assuming it runs as advertised) because of the
future Windoz support.
Naturally, my partner is very concerned about investing $$$ in the Amiga
platform. He is aware of it's development friendly features and cost
effectiveness but the support (or lack of it), future availability and the
quality of development products is a concern, not to mention if CD32 will
take off at all. But, all told, purchasing multimedia develoment products
for the Amiga ends up being about 10-20% less expensive, approximately,
which is a real incentive.
Do you know of anyone using CanDo for product development? What do you
think of textbased authoring packages such as the Director (which I have
used but may now be defuncted??) and Amos? Would they run faster or more
efficiently in a real world situation? The problem with the Director is
it's data handling features. It isn't easy to develop a database.
Andrew
Actually, I have seen very good work done in Amigavision Pro. And
apparently done fairly quickly, too.
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
Karl,
Yes, there is a local company that uses AV for their kiosks. They say
they are able to do full systems in the time and for less than it takes
others to do prototypes.
Andrew
Haven't used text-based development packages, unless you count BASIC, and
then my efforts were extremely modest. One of my production staffers tried
to get me to buy him Director (which I think is still marketed), but my
thought was that he just wouldn't be able to get into it. Icon-based stuff
is better for most folks.
AMOS is very hot in Europe where it's used for commercial application
development. Apparently it is close enough to BASIC that you could perhaps
port the resulting application to other platforms. There are customized
versions of AMOS that are tailored to specific needs, e.g., games
development. I notice that Safe Harbor mail order continually lists AMOS
as a top ten seller at its store, so maybe it's catching on stateside.
The Amiga is blessed with some good BASIC packages, such as HiSoft BASIC
and a couple of others, with solid multimedia routines. AMOS has its roots
in BASIC, as I understand it. Write in BASIC, and porting the application
to other platforms is about as easy as it's going to get.
TTR Development (now defunct) used CanDo for product development. I
believe interfaces for a couple of its products were CanDo based, among
them the slick-looking Workbench Management System, which, before its
demise, TTR was planning to port over to Windows. But that's all I know.
A Quicktime-compliant multimedia development package for the Amiga would
seem a prudent step forward.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Ron,
I almost missed your response.
AMOS is sold at my local dealer and is very reasonably priced. I was
concerned about it because it seems to break Amiga rules to get the job
done so I don't want to be stuck with something that doesn't work with the
next OS upgrade. On the other hand, from what I know, it look more like
Pascal than basic. As I mentioned, I use the Director but it seems to be
a non-issue with the new AGA systems.
The portability of basic is a definite advantage. My partner, as I think
I mentioned, is concerned about locking into a minority system like the
Amiga. That rules out AmigaVision except for prototyping or perhaps Amiga
products. Helm looks good but there seems to still be some problems with
it and the Windows port is still vapourware. CanDo has the same problem
as AV, along with Scala, being Amiga specific. Even basic, I expect, can
be problematic.
Yes, QuickTime would fly, I expect, on the Amiga. I suspose any potential
developer is waiting to see if it becomes the standard on Macs & PCs. Or
perhaps there are heavy liscensing fees involved in porting.
Andrew
Andrew,
PMFJI, but I read an article recently, Amazing, Sep93, p53, comparing
Visual Basic with CanDo. Although the final code would be different on
the two platforms, the development philosophies seem very close (the
'feel' to the developer), which might give these two a significant
advantage in any cross-platform environment.
As faculty, with my own Amiga, at a university that has IBM's, Mac's, and
no recognition of the Amiga name (omiga, omaega, ???), I am constantly
looking for cross-platform successes. So if you find a good fit for your
situation, please let me know.
Good luck, and thanks.
C F Coats –> via AutoPilot
Ok, I'll keep you in mind if I get any news. Have you tried the other
basics: BlitzBasic, Amos Pro, etc?
Andrew
> Ok, I'll keep you in mind if I get any news. Have you tried the other
> basics: BlitzBasic, Amos Pro, etc?
I have tried TrueBasic, after reading a review in Amazing. Although
TrueBasic is good (near excellent) for cross-platform development, with
versions for Mac, DOS, Unix, and Amiga, I didn't mention TrueBasic for two
reasons:
A. The Amiga side of their production was limited to a "Student" edition,
which was a cut-down version of their full-blown system. They told me
about a year ago they didn't like the market size for the Amiga, so they
weren't going to upscale our version. Then they offered me a special
price on a Mac or DOS version.*
B. For _multimedia_ development, authoring systems like AmigaVision,
CanDo, ToolBook, and HyperCard seemed more appropriate.
I like TrueBasic as a training platform, but I really don't have the
experience to recommend it as a development platform. Sorry I left it out
of my earlier message. If you really don't feel comfortable with any
other programming language (or system), by all means check out TrueBasic,
because the developers have a rare and wonderful commitment to make
TrueBasic 'feel' the same on every platform (my irritation as an Amiga
user doesn't change _that_ assessment). The last I noticed, the student
edition was available from DevWare for _very_ little compared with
everything else mentioned here, and the versions for the other platforms
are also reasonably priced.
Good Luck.
* "Uh-huh, sure." by faithful companion,
Amazon Ace radio serials, WLS Chicago, circa mid-60's.
Amazing how these old sounds come back on you. 😉
C F Coats –> via AutoPilot
I didn't realize that about TrueBasic. Have you any experience with Grasp
on PCs?
You are probably right about authoring programs. I think my problem is I
have that old puritan work ethic (not that I'm a hard worker) that says
that nothing easy is worth the effort. So I always look for the hard way
to do things. I guess I like the challenge. Of coarse, with that
attitude I should do it in assembly.
I don't know "Uh-huh, sure", could you hum it for me? 8^)
Andrew
Hi Andrew. I just noticed this thread.
Gee, calling a future Windows version of Helm "vaporware" seems a little harsh.
I've told a few people that I'm working on such a version but I've never
publically announced it or done anything other than speculate about a possible
completion date. I suppose it is technically vaporware. Unfortunately, the term
is so loaded, it seems to indicate a promise that was not kept.
Like any program of this size, we have had our share of problems. I've worked
through all of the ones that have been reported to me. In fact, we are sending
a free maintenance upgrade to registered users in the next few weeks. Once I
have everyone on the same version of Helm, I will start uploading patches to
fix future problems. If you have discovered a problem, please let me know so I
can correct it.
Actually, I'm quite excited about the prospects of using Helm for CD32
development. Several European companies are going to use Helm for this kind of
development and I've been working with them to add CD32 specific features.
Also, we are thinking about doing a title or two ourselves. I really think that
Helm will be the fastest way of creating many types of interactive applications
for CD32.
–Jerrell Nickerson
Eagle Tree Software (developer of Helm)
Jerrell,
Sorry, I was being a bit glib with my phrases. Didn't mean to offend nor
imply that it wouldn't be available. I was just trying to express that it
is coming but isn't here yet. Sorry again.
Yes, I too am excited about Helm and the CD32 prospects. I have to admit
that I haven't used it yet but I am about to re-start the project that I
purchased it for. Eagle Tree could probably put together some nice
applications based on some of the examples that come with the package.
I'd say go for it!
I also presented the demo version to an associate who is getting a news
letter off the ground and suggested that he use Helm to put together a
MultiMedia Magazine. If he doesn't go for it then I'm considering doing
it myself. He had a couple comments about it crashing (but it was the
demo which is almost 6 months old). He was also concerned about the size
of the player program and wanted me to let you know that it might be good
to look at having a less featured version for simpler books. He said that
he is picking it up from his local dealer when it's available. He also
put your press release in the last issue of his magazine.
Andrew
BTW, Where are the copies of literature that you were susposed to send me?
Andrew,
No problem. Since I started developing software, I've made nearly every mistake
possible. Promising vaporware is about the only sin I haven't committed yet.
I'm sure I'll get to that one eventually. <grin>
The browser is large but it includes the entire paint program. I've been
working on a much smaller browser that does not include the paint program and
all of the associated requesters. I have talked to several people who are
working on disk magazines and I'm trying to customize the smaller browser for
their purposes as well as for CD32 purposes.
That demo is very old and feeble. I wish I could completely remove it from
existence. I have a new demo that does a better job of showing off many of
Helm's features. I'll upload it here along with the browser and some sample
books in a day or two.
Oops, forgot about the literature. I'll send it right up. Thanks.
Jerrell
Jerrell,
I'm happy to see you are still very active (where do you find the time?)
Ya, a simple browser would be good. My colleage also commented that he
didn't like how the book could be changed although I told him pages can be
locked. But perhaps a real small and simple browser would be a third
option.
Re: the literature. I am a member of IICS (the International Interactive
Communications Society) and at the end of the month we are having a
presentation of Amiga Multimedia. We expect about 50 or so attendees so
perhaps you could send enough so that we could give a copy to each.
Hopefully, in the hour and a half we will be able to at least mention Helm
but if we can't then it would be good for them to have some info on it.
Most of 'em are PCers.
BTW, do you still have my address?
Andrew
Just be sure to tell your partner that IBM uses Scala on the Amiga to
create presentations to sell some of its non-Amiga multimedia systems.
They're no dummies; they use the best tool for the job. Platform
compatibility is going to become less of an issue as time goes on, in any
event. I gather the ScriptX system will be multiplatform, but then, that's
what I heard about Desqview/X.
Check out this month's Desktop Video World for comparisons of multimedia
authoring packages on Macs, PCs and Amigas. The roundup covers AmigaVision
and CanDo. There's a separate review of Helm elsewhere in the magazine,
for some reason. also note that there's a fairly busy topic over on GEnie
regarding Helm, and the author seems very responsive; he's already
delivered one upgrade and says a major upgrade with new database
capabilities is in the works.
The singular feature of the Amiga stuff that stands out in the magazine
roundup is how cheap it is considering the array of tools. You want this
kind of functionality on PCs, prepare to shell out a few grand for the
software.
I suppose you could always write in "C". The Amiga's BASIC implementations
are robust and largely compatible with those on other systems. BASIC is
more universal than you would expect. Port over the code and compile it.
With careful planning for multiplatform compatibility (i.e., avoiding
system-specific calls), that should do the trick. In fact, I vaguely
recall someone telling me that one of the Amiga BASICs was directly
useable in Microsoft Visual BASIC, but don't hold me to that.
Quicktime actually would be an under-achievement on the Amiga. The only
advantage it has on the Mac is that it exists at the system level. It
wouldn't on the Amiga, in all likelihood, anymore than Quicktime for
Windows is at the root of MS-DOS. There are already converters to let
Windows .FLI animations work in an Amiga environment (and maybe the other
way around); a QT utility for the Amiga would best do the same.
Meanwhile, an Amiga system library that could integrate, say, IFF-ANIM8 or
CDXL with SMUS or IFF-8SVX may very well be superior to QT in performance
terms. If only C= would get cracking. MPEG hardware may make Quicktime (or
Video for Windows, or Indeo, or whatever) a requirement on future desktops
computers, or it may obsolete same. There's still a lot of shaking out to
come in this field.
In any case, I'm sure Apple would demand heavy licensing fees for a QT
port. Just like Philips is stonewalling C= on PhotoCD support. Not that
such roadblocks can't be gotten around. But the point is, this is war, and
the enemy will do all it can to maintain a strategic advantage.
— Ron Legro from Milwaukee via AUTOPILOT
(The only way to fly)
Ron,
I'll have to mention the IBM Scala story. Is Script X an IBM product
(Ultimedia) or third party. I too heard it was going to be multiplatform
but I'll bet you they mean IBM, Mac and maybe SGIs, not Amiga. 8(
DTVW is a great idea whose time is overdue! I'll check it out. Usually I
don't go out of my way to buy "video" mags 'cause they're about Toasters &
TBCs and stuff, which I'm not likely to own anytime soon.
Yes, Jerrell, the developer of Helm, was very patient with my questions
before I purchased it (are you reading Jerrell??? *^) ) and seemed very
conscientious and supporting about his product.
Writing in C was something that I was considering but I have enough
trouble with ARexx that I think it is unlikely. I have used the Director
which is a sorta simplified Basic so Basic would likely be the way. Yes,
I believe AmigaBasic was compatible with MSBasic but it isn't compatible
with KS2/3.
Oh, QT is a system resource? I understood it was just a utility. Ya, as
a resource on the Amiga it would likely be a kludge. But it would be nice
to create and share QT presentations. A QT clone, as you describe would
be an excellent addition but it would be even better if there was some way
of transfering it to other systems, via QT or any other standard of the
day.
Andrew