#Windows NT How to?
33 messages in this thread
I have a problem that I'm sure many out there also have and many here are in a
position to offer many opinions.
I have a Lantastic 5.0 network on 4 – 486-66's with 32megs of ram on each
running peer to peer. I run windows 3.11 with win32's flawlessly fast and bug
free on Lantastic. I have ample hard drive space on each machine. Most of my
software is windows based except for 3DSr4 and animator pro, plus the PAR v1.5.
Everything runs very well, flat bed scanner, modem, internet connection, sound
boards etc. I have about $15000 in software investments and thousands in IPAS
too.
Here's the question: How would I best and most economically make the
transition to Win NT on my network? Would I install the Windows server on one
machine and the workstation on the other three? Would I install the
workstation on one machine and win 95 on the other machines? How can I keep my
network working with all this dos software investment? I spent the afternoon
getting sticker shock on all the software upgrades, hardware upgrades and
learning curve and frankly if I have to suffer a major setback in my current
system, I can't see going ahead at this time where the gain will add
questionable advances to my business product which is broadcast video
production.
Don,
I'm in pretty much the same situation as you. I've got six machines which have
all worked fine on Lantastic 6.0 and I'm trying to find the most efficient way
of making the transition.
Based on two assumptions: 1. That Win95 machines can network to NT machines;
and 2. That Network rendering with R4 must be done over the Lantastic network
(not Win95/NT). Here's my tentative plan:
1. Install NT on one machine (with dual boot NT/DOS)
Get familiar with NT.
2. Install Win95 on all machines.
3. Install NT on two P90's which are only used as render slaves.
On these machines, I'll set up dual boot configurations
(DOS/Lantastic and NT). This way I could still use them for
R4 rendering and later for MAX.
4. Then I plan to keep using my DOS and Win95/31 applications on my
two main machines and gradually migrate to Win95 and then to NT as
the software and hardware allows me to.
I think this will allow me to continue using all my current DOS and Win31 stuff
and be ready for MAX.
All this is very difficult stuff to deal with — particularly when I was just
getting familiar with DOS and Win31. Let me know how you plan to do it; I'm
sure you will come up with a very clever solution.
Alec Jason
Alec and Don:
Something else you might want to try: WfW includes a program to network under
DOS, also. Perhaps you can run that instead of Lantastic, which will talk to
an NT workstation. Then you would have very little disruption switching back
and forth. Sounds like a good theory! :^)
Greg Pyros
The theory has been tested here and as far as WFW is concerned it failed the
acid test. I had so many problems with large file handling (eg. 1 meg size)
that I just gave up, switched to Lantastic and all those problems went away.
MS would never admit to those problems at the time saying it was my hardware
but Rob. Metcaff wrote an article explaining my problem and the root cause.
Then, after the published article MS acknowledged the problem with their
network. To my knowledge they never fixed it. Most small businesses in this
area ran into the same problems and this is why WFW never really caught on. We
found Lantastic running windows was much faster and transparent than WFW. Alec
brings up the big question. Does win 95 network with Win NT workstation
without a network operating system using existing ethernet hardware. Just so
much I don't know about this stuff, I decided to just ask…
Don:
>> and as far as WFW is concerned it failed the acid test. I had so
>> many problems with large file handling (eg. 1 meg size)
What I was referring to was the WfW DOS software talking to an NT workstation.
Would the problem still occur there? Enquiring minds want to know!
Although I've been running Win95 for a while at home, at the office I think
we're just going to skip that entirely and go straight to NT. I love dual boot.
I love dual boot. I love dual boot. I love dual boot. I love dual…
Greg Pyros
PS – Maybe if I say it often enough I'll start to believe it!
Greg, Don
FWIW, I never could get Novell Personal to see or be seen by NT Workstation,
either.
-Ted Boardman
>> I love dual
>> boot. I love dual boot. I love dual boot. I love dual boot. I love dual…
Hey Greg, what do you think about dual boot? <g>
Now if I could just pay attention when I'm booting up so I don't miss the
menu and go into NT when I want DOS. There must be a way to make DOS the
default (for now!) …or make me pay more attention at boot-up<BG>.
Ralph
Ralph,
>> Now if I could just pay attention when I'm booting up so I don't miss the
menu and go into NT when I want DOS. There must be a way to make DOS the
default (for now!)
It's actually quite easy. All you have to do is to edit c:\boot.ini. It's a
hidden file, but I'm sure you know how to remove the hidden attribute. Once
you've got it open, just change the line that says "default".
BTW; nice meeting you at the AMMEDIA party at Siggraph, though I can't blame
you if you don't remember me, what with all the new faces.
John (AEC Technologies)
>> It's actually quite easy. All you have to do is to edit c:\boot.ini. It's a
Thanks, John. I knew I read something like that. Now I don't have to look
it up!
>> BTW; nice meeting you at the AMMEDIA party at Siggraph, …
and nice meeting you also. I do remember you and most of the others I
met… it was the reason (among others) for being there.
Ralph
>>> Now if I could just pay attention when I'm booting up so I don't miss the
menu and go into NT when I want DOS. There must be a way to make DOS the
default (for now!)<
>It's actually quite easy. All you have to do is to edit c:\boot.ini. It's a
hidden file, but I'm sure you know how to remove the hidden attribute. Once
you've got it open, just change the line that says "default".<
You can do it that way, but the safer way is to use Control Panel -> System and
set the default OS to load and the countdown timer can be changed.
Tin,
>> You can do it that way, but the safer way is to use Control Panel -> System
and set the default OS to load and the countdown timer can be changed.
Thanks for reminding me. You can also change the timer by editing the boot.ini
file. One thing you can do by editing boot.ini that you *can't* do in Control
Panel is to take out the extra NT VGA boot option, which I never use. I can
always put it back in later if I need to.
John
Just remember that you need to turn the VGA boot option back on any time you
mess with a new video card or with new video drivers. It would be a real pain
to have to do a full reinstall just because your screen has turned to giberish.
<<spoken as one who has been there, seen it, done it>>
LAM
Larry,
>> Just remember that you need to turn the VGA boot option back on any time you
mess with a new video card or with new video drivers.
Yep. I've saved a virgin boot.ini from the beginning, just in case.
John
>Now if I could just pay attention when I'm booting up so I don't miss the
menu and go into NT when I want DOS. There must be a way to make DOS the
default (for now!) …or make me pay more attention at boot-up<BG>.<
Go into Control Panel | System and you can select the default OS to boot. You
can also change the countdown timer, I set mine to 5 seconds.
If you read the win95 box it says total compatibility with win 3.1 apps. If
you listen to all the talk there is nothing but bugs doing this. I think the
latest idea I had is to test the waters with a separate C: hard drive I can
move the cable to for testing until I get comfortable. This way I can remain
productive at work on familiar turf.
Don:
For your uses, you don't need the NT Server, just Workstation. (Just saved you
$500!).
I would set up all the machines you plan to use with dual boot. This way you
will be able to switch back and forth until all the IPAS and other
hardware/software you depend on gets NT drivers.
Are you running Lantastic on Ethernet cards (good) or Lantastic cards (bad). If
Ethernet, you can use the same cards for NT. If not, you might look into
switching now so that you can use the systems for both.
What it looks like I will do here is dedicate a machine as an NT server and
cross-link the drives with my Sun workstations. That way, we will be able to
run either operating system on any computer, and find a server. I forsee times
when I will have to have half of the machines rendering R4 with IPAS and the
others rendering MAX at the same time.
Who said this business was for the faint of heart (or pocketbook)?
Greg Pyros
Some good solid advice! Thanks.
I do have ethernet with Lantastic AI 5.0. I guess I use dual boot for the
windows NT machine and run 3DS max and R4 on it. Will the NT boot talk to my
other drives, ie recognize the AI network? What about using windows 95 with
the network like I currently use win 3.11? I can see this thing is going to
get real complicated. It's so nice right now because I can be rendering on any
number of machines, split them off for other duties either windows or dos as
desired and put them back on rendering as desired. I'm thinking that I may
need to have a machine with two C drives to physically switch over to test the
waters with win95 and not screw things up for work projects. I have room and
this might be worth looking into.
I appreciate the fact that you quickly saved me looking into the NT server
software. I thought that I may need to redesign my entire network with NT.
The server software costs $300 more here at CompUSA.
Don,
I'm in a sort of similar position. I've got 1 computer, soon to be 2, with R4,
Par etc. and haven't had any problems using WFWG 3.11. Las week, I put Win95 on
and while it looks nice, and is faster at opening programs like Photoshop, or
Elastic Reality. It chokes a lot and refuses to see the PAR. You can use the
PAR under DOS just fine, but I can't use Razor Pro at all. What I'm saying is
that I wouldn't even bother with Win95. I'm going out and getting NT, and just
dealing with it. I'll do a dual boot and hopefully everything will be ok.
DM
Don:
>> Some good solid advice! Thanks.
You're welcome! We're all still learning here, take everything you hear and
read with the proverbial grain of salt!
I an mot familiar at all with Lantastic, so I'm afraid I can't even guess at
those questions!
Greg Pyros
Very usefull discussion, I appreciate it.
Ed
To Greg, Alec and others;
I spent some time reviewing the web pages at
http://www.microsoft.com/NTserver/NTs2map? (I think that is where I was) They
have flow charts, bullets and a series of web pages with features list
explaining how to choose between 95, workstation, and server. It has the
system requirements and what each will do for you in the charts. It is really
quite helpful. Based on these charts I have now concluded that I should do the
following with my network:
Use my EISA platform for NT workstation which will still be the primary 3DS,
PAR, Elastic Reality location. The version of NT Workstation should be the
next one that uses the win95 shell and install it with dual boot. Due to the
incompatibility issues currently admitted by microsoft for NT workstation it
would not be advisable for ME to upgrade to MAX/NT on this machine until this
version of NT is out. Instead, continue to run R4 with DOS and, maybe, win NT
3.51 workstation for learning curve.
My other 3 machines should be upgraded to win95 as these machines are all
hardware compatible and mostly software compatible. It is my understanding
that I can run win95 network to replace the Lantastic AI operating system. I
may need a DOS system dual boot to configure for 3DSr4 network rendering should
win95 prove too taxing for 3DS network rendering. Currently, my needs are such
that each of my rendering slaves is used 80% for other than 3DS renderings and
therefore the dos boot for slave operation would be the exception rather than
the rule.
The above will allow me to make the upgrade to NT on all machines after the
newer version of NT workstation is released ( I understand later '96)
This will give me time to pay for some CPU/ram upgrades as well. In addition,
there is still much unknown regarding the total picture of 3DS MAX. It is so
radically different from my familiar 3DS r1 thru r4 that I question it's value
to my current business needs. ie. If I need to model a client's logo for a TV
commercial with a prorated value of, say $1000 in the commercial, how much is
MAX going to improve my ability to do this over 3DSr4 and Elastic Reality? If
I were you or Alan I. I could more easily answer this question. I would be
jumping on it as quickly as possible. For me, 3DS supports my video editing
suite; for you the video editing supports the animation. There is a difference
in priorities here. I also have to consider spending the equal of 3DSMAX and
new plugins vs. real time 3D DVE effects hardware such as the Alladin from
Pinnacle. In video, clients don't understand or accept the concept of
rendering video effects. If it can be done real time they want it that way.
Based on those answers I got from the web site, I need the robustness of win95
now more than I'll need NT workstation even at the end of the year. So this
makes the first step in my upgrade path to be three machines to be win95 with a
dual dos boot for 3DS slaves. Now I can concentrate on the 4th machine for
NT/MAX or whatever will come down the pike in '96.
I think this has become the proper course for my set of special conditions for
the balance of this year.
Don:
Sounds like a well-thought-out upgrade path. Unless, of course, you see MAX
when it ships and just tell yourself you have to have it! The best laid
plans…
Greg Pyros
Don, if you don't mind, what "incompatabilities" are you refering to when you
say microsoft admits to…? Just curious.
Doug
Incompatibilities MS admits to are a general statement.
If you go to their web site and follow the guidelines for selecting the
operating system best suited for ones needs part of the process is to screen
your current hardware for NT support. MS admits that with NT there are less
compatibilities than win95. They also say that this is rapidly changing and
eventually the two will be equally compatible with hardware.
OK, Thanks Don. I wasn't sure if you were referring to a specific case or
machine, or what. Thanks for clearing it up.
Doug
Don:
I ain't no NT expert, but unless your networking needs grow, I don't think you
need the Server version. I believe the Workstation version will allow
something like 5 users to be logged into it.
Dave
>>I ain't no NT expert,
Sounds like a triple negative.<G>
>>I believe the Workstation version will allow something like 5 users to be
logged into it.
5 users of what? more NT, WFW? WIN95? Lantastic? Novell? MS LANMGR? etc.
Don:
Apparently, the connections number is 10. (I couldn't remember 5 or 10, so I
chose to err on the lower end.)
>>five whats?
As I understand it, anything that you can get a driver for. In other words,
the "workstation" version of NT essentially differs from the "server" version,
in that it's not "optimized" for file-server operation, and there is
essentially a 10-user limit (like buying a 10-user copy of Novell).
Dave
David,
>> I believe the Workstation version will allow something like 5 users to be
logged into it.
NT Workstation allows up to 10 simultaneous network connections.
John
Thanks, John. I vasilated (sp?) on 5 or 10, as I couldn't remember — and
chose the smaller, just to be safe.
Dave
Hey guy, I've been watching your posts for awhile and especially appreciate the
tip on the Quantum Fireball. Got a 1 gig on order.
Here's a solution that's working great for me. I got Win 95 and a small routing
hub. Its a Linksys with a feature adaptor to run from a PowerMac which is
linked with 4 P90's and I'm using RJ45 connectors. You can get a bnc type for
LAN 5. Cost me a $100 plus $89 for Win 95.
Win 95 gives you both Client and Server facilities Peer to Peer, in DOS you get
Client and peer to peer in DOS only, the Win machines can't see the DOS peers.
But the peers can access both Win 95 and NT with Netbuei. Win 95 is a smoker,
in some ways even better than NT. The great thing about using a hub is that you
can run both Lan 6 and Netbuei simulatenously. Its a little messy with mapping
but I've got the Win 95 machines labled ANIM-A ANIM-B etc. and the Lan machines
labled ANIM-1 ANIM-2 etc.. ANIM-A = ANIM-1 and so on. The drives remain the
same, like ANIM-1c etc.
With a multiple configuration like this you can do it all, its almost second
nature now after my week of working with it, and the flexibility is just as
good as if Win 95 machines could see the DOS clients.
Now this is like being really wired man… but it works good and lasts a long
time, just like that pink rabbit. <g>
Ciao,
Alex
Thanks for the info, Alex. I've filed it away for future reference.
Don,
Likewise, thanks for the tip on the Fireball, its a blistering fast. <g> Can't
beat the price either, at the cost of a Yost IPAS through Insight
Tempe/Pheonix.
Ciao,
Alex