#Cops, Courts, Crooks
14 messages in this thread
No way. man in general is proabably capable of almost anything, as much and
more than your god is supposed to have done, including generation of solar
systems, stting bushes on fire, conceptions without penetration, and
probagating values over time beyond one lifespan. You remember Eye-4-an-I ?
Greece, or Rome, no? I can't buy that. Consensus, no, not yet. But soon. the
Genetic map is undergoing significant mapping — when they figure out what
makes you stupid, who will want a stupid offspring? When they figure out what
makes you inherently psycotic, who, again? When they figure out what makes you
generally healty, remove the need to work yourself to death simply to survive,
remove starvation, eduacte the masses and so choke religon to within an inch of
it's life, then you'll begin to see a consensus. Nationalism has to go.
Languages have to cohere. Power has to be cheap. Knowledge has to be cheap or
free. We'll get there, without the need for any supernatural forces, either.
–Ben–
Ben,
This is a little off the subject, but if you are interested in genetic
engineering and other types of nanotechnology, you would probably enjoy the
book, "The Engines of Creation", by K. Eric Drexler. It is well written, easy
to understand (I don't come from a strong science background, but rather a
strong SF background!), and is one of the most fascinating books I have ever
read. It discusses coming advances in molecular technology that will enable
such things as the reversal of aging! Such technology will also allow the
creation of mechanical super-computers, which are much faster and more capable
than the electronic computers of today. The mechanical aspects will be on a
molecular level, rather than a modern day version of a Babbage engine.
Rodney Somerstein 73167,2165
Rodney,
Even on a molecular level….mechanical computers can never be faster
than electronic computers. Lots of reasons…but the major reason is inertia.
It takes very little energy or time to get electrons moving and while it takes
much more energy and time to get molecules moving (on a relative time scale).
The same would be true for a state, physical or chemical change in a molecule.
Don
I would expect the higher speed of a "molecular" (biological) computer to come
from a massively parallel architecture, or perhaps a fully holographic system,
which cannot currently be done with electronics. The brain is abysmally slower
than even a C64, but many processes it can handle faster and better than the
largest supercomputers. When we start "growing" computers, all us
Von-Neumanites will have to start learning again from scratch.
Not at all sure this is what either Rodney or the writer of the book intended,
but that was the way I took it.
Rick
Exactly. The point is, that on a molecular level, things can be done
mechanically that are just plain impossible with electronics.
Rodney Somerstein 73167,2165
Rick,
If we ever get the point where we can "grow" a computer on a molecular
level (biological or otherwise) we would also more than likely have the
technology to create a better version via electronics.
We can already do parallel processing via electronics…separate
programs and processors each doing a bit of an overall larger process…and all
controlled by a master processor.
The human brain isn't designed or developed to think numbers, and thus
is slower at addition, subtraction, etc than a PC. The brain is designed to
work on concepts and on them it's superb. Think of the complex calculations
and adjustments that must be made to pitch a baseball…and we do it without
consicous thinking other than "fastball", "curve", etc. The brain handles the
concept motion, inertia, aerodynamics, gravity, musculature, strength,
flexability,etc all in an instant without knowing any of the written formulas
for such calculations nor the forumla needed to put it all together….it just
does it.
Now think of the calculations necessary by the batter to hit the ball,
also done instantly and with extremely limited information to work with. The
batter has to determine probable path based on an instants view of the ball as
it leaves the pitcher's hand, determine speed and then the necessary movements
of the arms required to bring the bat into contact not only with the ball, but
in such a manner as to make the ball move in the opposite direction yet stay
within the limits of a "fair ball".
To me…that's absolutely amazing.
Don
You'd better believe it's amazing, and that was the point: the brain is a sort
of "holographic" system. Say what you will about electronics, we can't build
something if we don't know how it's made, advances in technology
notwithstanding. But maybe bio-engineering will allow us to "grow" complex
systems without understanding them?
(Although this leaves us in the hands of a holographic, artificially
intelligent computer, the machinations of which we don't understand… SF here
we come. 8)
I dunno. This is a good category for the discussion, because I am most
certainly typing this off the cuff. Let's compare notes and see how well
electronics and bio-engineered systems are doing against each other when the
latter reaches the state we're citing. I plan on still being around then…
don't you? 8)
Rick
In the argument over whether electronic or mechanical computers would be
faster, you bring in a CHEMICAL computer? The fact that a human brain is
effective when it depends on neuro-transmitters wafting from cell to cell,
proves only that an effective architecture can be built even from the most
ineffective building blocks.
Organic nervous systems depend on electrical signals to cover distance (eg
communication from your fingertip to your spine), but do the processing
chemically.
../greg
But with the distances that the molecules are moving being so small, it would
not require that much energy or time to travel the appropriate distance.
Rodney Somerstein 73167,2165
Rodney,
Right…and it takes even less time and energy for an electron to
travel that distance or for an electron to transfer a photon over the same
distance.
Don
Sounds very interesting — I'll pick it up, let you know! –Ben–
The Engines of Creation just came out in trade paperback, so if you don't like
buying hardbacks, you can save a few dollars.
Rodney Somerstein 73167,2165
Ben:
Well, we know that this is were we have to agree to disagree. On the
other hand, I do not doubt that most of what you are talking about is possible
(even though not too likely in our lifetimes). Either you believe in the
supernatural forces or you don't.
73,
bill