#Clone Controllers
28 messages in this thread
I hope the sysops don't consider this question politically dangerous: Has
anyone out there used the non-Adobe fonts (Bitstream, Font Company, Image Club,
etc)? I've used Casady and Image Club fonts. The display types are ok but the
text faces are nothing to write home about. I think, frankly, that Adobe makes
better text faces. My dilemma is whether to buy one of these "PostScript
Compatible" printers (Jasmine or Mirror Tech crystal shutter device) and buy
non Adobe fonts for it or pay extra for an Adobe licensed controller. I suppose
that if the clone fonts were good then I could proof things on the clone
printer and then send it to a service bureau where they could use the Adobe
original, or not. Which of course brings me to the second question: what are
the comments about the Birmy setter? They seem to include lots of goodies but I
believe that they also use a non Adobe controller. I would appreciate candid
answers since my brother wants to establish a typesetting business in Spain and
has no other contact with experienced users. Feel free to send me mail through
easyPlex if you need to be discreet. Blaise Pabon (72017,2215)
If you're depending on your clone laser printer for proofing (using non-Adobe
fonts) and expect to run final output on an Adobe-licensed imagesetter (with
Adobe fonts), you are depending on more than "good" clone fonts. At a minimum,
you would have to have a font library that matches the Adobe library in all
font metrics–the non-Adobe font vendors are only attempting to match the
metrics of the "basic Plus" set of 35 fonts–and if you were using type as a
graphic element you would need identical character shapes. These are not
realistic expectations, in my opinion. Then you would be confronted with a
variety of unpleasant font ID issues, not easy to solve. In general, if you
expect to run final output on an Adobe-licensed imagesetter, you're *much*
better off doing your proofing with the Adobe fonts on an Adobe-licensed laser
printer.
High-resolution imagesetters are relatively fragile devices, and one very
important criterion for choosing a machine is the service and support available
from the manufacturer in your area. Again, I would strongly recommend an
Adobe-licensed imagesetter: which one your brother should invest in will depend
on the manufacturer's presence and quality in Spain.
There are now several non-Adobe-licensed PostScript interpreters that claim the
ability to run Adobe fonts, and this trend is likely to grow now that Adobe has
announced that it will release the full specification for its font
architecture. So clone printers may be a safer bet in half a year or so.
Thanks Stephen. I suspected as much. I guess it looks like NTX city for the
time being. Blaise
Blaise,
It is NOT a good idea to proof on a laser printer with one set of fonts, and
then print at a service bureau with another. (1) Even if the laser printer used
fonts with allegedly the same width values as the imagesetter fonts, they might
differ in more subtle areas like kern values, character shape, etc. This could
adversely affect output where exact placement of characters is important, as in
many graphics, and might even cause different line breaks in text. (2) Someone
at the service bureau would have to respec all the type using the new font, a
conceivably time comsuming operation. If our service bureau were doing it, we'd
charge you editing time at $75 an hour, and we'd probably have to give you
another laser proof to assure you that it was coming out OK before going to
Lino output.
You should ALWAYS use the same set of fonts when going from one printer to
another.
^Steve^
Steve, pardon me for asking but since I'm looking for a service bureau here in
the States, what bureau DO you work for? Actually, I've never used a service
bureau here before. Is it a good idea to use a local one (one that I can drive
to)? I'm in the Buffalo New York area now. This is pretty much my U.S. base.
Blaise.
Blaise,
I manage the service bureau portion (called the Electronic Media Department) of
a typesetting/graphics company called Central Graphics in San Diego, CA. We've
chosen to focus primarily on the market in San Diego and southern Orange
Counties in California. We do accept some files on our bulletin board system
from outside areas, but we don't accept payment by VISA or Mastercard, so
account arrangements would have to be made.
You might better contact one of our fellow Professional PostScript Alliance
members somewhat closer to you. Bob Schaffel, who manages SprintOut in New York
City, is very knowledgeable and helpful, and their business is more suited for
long-distance communication. You can call him at (212) 941-8444.
^Steve^
Thanks for the lead. I have also called some other people in upstate New York
and gotten some prices… I had another question: I saw that you mentioned
having written a nifty test strip routine which prints material at diferent
resolutions, etc. Can I get a copy of it, is it in the utilities library?
Blaise.
Oh, Steve, what is this Disk Restore I keep hearing about? Is this available as
a standalone application or is it a piece of code one downloads (PostScript)? I
know of an Lino 100p in southern Spain which is in serious need of a disk
cleanup. Blaise
Blaise,
Run the following piece of PostScript code to clear font cacheing on a Lino:
/scratch 100 string def
systemdict /filenameforall known
{ (FC/*) {deletefile} scratch filenameforall } if
serverdict begin 0 exitserver
systemdict begin quit
The RIP should be reset at the end of the process, but if it is not, reset it
manually. I'd recommend that the free disk space on the RIP should become less
than 5 to 10 Mb, or you can run into problems.
^Steve^
I'm not particularly beating the Adobe drum, Blaise, but I'm personally leery
of the current crop of clone controllers – a lot of them will hiccup at
inopportune moments, aside from the limitations of not being able to handle
Type 1 (hinted) fonts.
…mm
Since no one mentioned the BirmySetter specifically, I'll add my two cents. In
regard to type faces, the BirmySetter, using a RIP and interpreter from RIPS,
Inc., has been capable of using Adobe I encrypted fonts for some 6 or 7 months.
We use a BirmySetter every day and almost every day make use of Adobe Helvetica
Black, Optima, Garamond, Galliard and Futura. With new software enhancements
(yes, the Birmy's interpreter is loaded into RAM off of the hard disk, so
updates are relatively easy) the Birmy continues to excell in performance tests
and quality imaging.
The BirmySetter is still the most flexible high-res PostScript language product
on the market. It now boasts support for the following output engines:
Ultre*Setter 72 picas wide 3000 dpi Ultre*Setter 94 picas wide
2400 dpi ECRM Pel Box 72 picas wide 1016 or 3000 dpi ECRM 108S
108 picas wide 1016 dpi (at 23 inches per min.) Canon SX 8.5 x
11" 300 dpi PLAIN PAPER Canon SX OEM 8.5 x 11"
800×400 dpi PLAIN PAPER Canon LBX-20 11×17" 1000×500 dpi
PLAIN PAPER Canon DX 24×36" 1000×500 dpi PLAIN PAPER
Graphic Ent'prs 18×24" 800×800 dpi PLAIN PAPER
More are on the way. Also, please note that the SAME interpreter/hardware RIP
can be used to drive all of the products. Look to Varityper for 108 pica
imaging or Canon DX support and you're looking at a different interpreter.
(continued)
OOOPS! Sorry, David, you took my reply to Blaise a little out of context – he
was soliciting an assessment of 300 dpi LW replacements. It's my understanding
(all second hand, admittedly) that they're still glitchy.
The only non-Adobe RIP's supporting Type 1 are all high-res units. No slight
intended to Birmy.
…mm
Yes, I was also curious about The Brimy setter, but my questions were in fact
directed to 300 dpi plain paper printers. Blaise
The fastest plain paper (300 dpi) PostScript language compatible printer/device
in the RIPS 4000i. Using the Intel 960 RISC and 4 Mbytes of RAM, this device
processes PostScript faster than any other (for now!). Faster, yes, that the PS
Clone implementation on the AMD 29000. Where can you get a 4000i board? Birmy
Graphics sells it for $3,000. For $8,900 you can get the same card and an
800×400 dpi OEM Canon SX engine. Nu-bus cards are available for MAC owners.
Yes, the RIPS/Birmy packages can use Adone Type I. A job run out on the Qume
Crystal Print (clone, mind you) from Corel that took 15.4 minutes ran on the
4000i in 1 min. 5 sec. The 4000i is also the same "base" board for all future
BirmySetter systems and can be outfitted with up to 52 Mbytes of RAM for 24×36
1000×500 dpi in-memory imaging.
David Geller Electric Logic, Inc.
Oh my God, i just bought an NTX ! at any rate I don curently have a Mac with
slots Blaise.
(continuation of Birmy praise)
Also, Birmy seems to be one of the few firms really tackling speed as an issue.
In fact, I'm told plans call for a new RIP card with 52 Mbytes of RAM packed on
it so that board sheet pages can approach the 1 pg/min mark. 52 Mbytes of RAM
will also allow the 24×36 inch device to be driven without the need for a SCSI
image buffer. Also, the new Birmy RIPs use the RIPS 4000i boards which use the
new Intel 960 RISC. Previous boards had used the Weitek Hyperscript chip set.
Granted this is not too objective a response. But for a product line that
starts (for high-res) at $34,600 and delivers Type I support at 3000 dpi, more
people should sit up and take notice. I did, and I'm very happy. Look, clones
made the PC market what it is today – fruitful, expansive and, in general, more
affordable. If you find a good product that's compatible, less expensive it's
worth a test drive. If you're really worried about clones…ask Lino about who
developed the RIP3 and where…
D. Geller Washington, D.C.
Oh yeah, about fonts…At extremely high resolutions, many vendors type faces
look quite good. Hinting becomes less of an issue. According to Seybold, many
of the Bitstream faces were truer to the original type faces. I've used
Bitstream, URW and Adobe on the Birmy. All render quite well.
David:
Does the Birmy handle Type 1 fonts from those type foundries that are producing
hinted fonts but didn't by the rights from Adobe (like Bitstream and URW)?
How does the Birmy interface to the Macs if virtually all your PostScript work
is on the Mac environment and not IBM?
–jon
Jon –
I'm not sure that "most PostScript work is performed on the MAC." Actually, I'd
suspect that in a short while there will be more PC users realizing the
benefits of PostScript and start having their applications produce said code.
Most all PC applications have PS drivers.
In regard to the Birmy…
It'll take input from 16 input sources simultaneous. Of the 16, 4 are published
AppleTalk names off of one Appletalk card (Daystar Digital) installed in the
BirmySetter RIP tower. Each AppleTalk name can correspond to a different set of
imagesetter options/configurations. Need 1200 dpi reversed output — just have
one of the server names represent that configuration, go under chooser,
print…and voilla (sp?) !
Through its OS Paths interface the BirmySetter can poll up to eight (soon to be
16) directory paths on a network (or local) file server. For Novel, 3COM and
other network users this is a delight as applications programs need only
"deposit" files in specified directories that the BirmySetter reads. Again,
like the AppleTalk, each directory is associated (can be) associated with a
particular set of options such as resolution, line screen settings, etc.
David Geller Electric Logic, Inc. Washington, D.C.
David,
I don't know about your service bureau, but on our imagesetters at least 80% of
the jobs come from the Macintosh. And that's not because we don't support PC
applications. We fully do, including printed documentation on how to create
PostScript files from Ventura and PC PageMaker.
I'm sure that if you were talking about _laser printer output_, there would be
a higher percentage of PC output.
^Steve^
Steve –
probably right about PS on the MAC and PC and what proportion of jobs are done
on laser versus lino-like.
In D.C., though, lots of big clients (gov't) are moving to Ventura. For most
book work its hard to beat.
DG in DC
(and as if you haven't heard enough…)
Most (as in 80-90%) existing PostScript work is on the Mac. I'm honestly
surprised you disputed this.
PostScript implementation and DTP in general under MS-DOS are relatively
complex and costly undertakings in relation to what is an off-the-shelf
solution using Macs. The bulk of the MS-DOS world that we see (of which we see
a lot) has their document processing needs met with the likes of WordPerfect
5.0 and a HP LaserJet or other PCL-compatible printer. There are exceptions,
but they remain exceptions nonetheless.
…mm
I personally have yet to see ANYTHING on PC's that look anything but clunky
(however you wish the term to apply). Yes the work can get done, but it's a
pain in the A*S, even if you're expert at MS-DOS, etc. Now the MAC is a
different story. Not only is every program I've ever seen (even down to the
smallest/stupidest utility) a veritable work of art (mostly due to Apple's
brilliant Toolbox/Quickdraw), but easy to learn, implement and conceptualize on
a day by day, job by job basis.
Sorry, PC heads.
Mike – interesting reading. Do you work for Adobe (I might have said Apple a
year ago). What do you care if some other company trys to compete and build and
better product. Why waste time trying to assault a project before you've seen
the result. Adobe's just been greedy – or maybe you can tell the computer
community why a PostScript laser printer costs more than $3,000 (exception
noted for new projects of Adobe – finally).
I'm a consumer. If fonts can cost less great. If PostScript
interpreters/devices can work faster – great. If clones do a better job –
great.
I'm generally an optimistic person and I look forward to any new software
development that can expand upon a wonderful page description language and
extend it to the screen.
Re: Adobe ATM…I saw it a couple of month ago in beta form. Very impressive.
All this stuff about Apple and MS doing something terrible is alot like people
bashing PC's a few years back. I just picked up a 20 mhz '386 with 8 Mbytes of
RAM for $1500. Thank goodness for clones and competition!
David Geller Washington, D.C.
Hmmm. Points to ponder.
There are two different PostScripts being discussed here: 1) PostScript, the
programming language which has become the advanced-technology standard-bearer
of the US graphic arts industry; and 2) PostScript, the product brought to you
by Adobe Systems, Inc.
PostScript is being discussed and defended primarily from the POV of #1. Before
PostScript, the graphics industry was awash in a sea of proprietary PDL's.
Moving between system vendors was expensive and chaotic. I coded more than my
share of output device drivers, and none of them were particularly easy, each
with their own idiocyncracies and exceptions directly caused by the lack of
standards.
That the industry so quickly embraced PostScript amounts to a miracle. I simply
don't want to see ground lost and effort duplicated just because the likes of
Apple and Microsoft feel they don't have a big enough piece of the pie. If they
were to come up with an honestly better mouse trap, then more power to them,
but every indicator out there says this isn't the case.
Healthy competition is always welcome. The Apple-Microsoft alliance in a
software development venture is _not_ healthy competition. It is the same as if
IBM and DEC announced a joint venture to aggressively market a series of cheap
32-bit minis designed to replace Data General hardware. This is unabashedly
predatory.
I can't help but chuckle when people complain about $3-4000 PostScript
printers. I have two 600dpi page printers sitting in the room next to me; they
will output 6-7 pages a minute. And they cost $160,000 each, only eight years
ago. To save some of the high operating costs of these beasts, we bought two
corresponding plain-paper (Canon CX) 300 dpi versions three years ago – at
$25,000 per, just because they supported the proprietary PDL and fonts of the
big machines. Fonts? $250 _each_ – not per family.
How quickly we forget from whence we came.
…mm
The royalty paid to Adobe for the PostScript interpreter by a large-volume
producer of laser printers like Apple is remarkably small; according to the
best reports I've heard it's under $250. If you think that isn't worth it, you
don't remember the state of the industry before Adobe. If you want to deal with
a clone vendor for a few bucks saving, feel free to take your chances. But
don't blame Adobe for Apple's greed!
David:
By "most PostScript work is performed on the MAC" I meant that most of my
shop's PostScript work is performed on the Mac.
Thanks for the detailed answer. Do you know off hand if Birmy will be
displaying its machines at GraphX in Chicago next week? The owner of my shop is
about to plop down a ton of money for a third L-300 and I'm trying to get him
to look at a couple of the alternatives.
–jon
Jon,
Are you going to Info '89 at the Javits Center next week? I have a feeling the
Mac representation will be small, but the show should be interesting. Bell
Atlantic is supposed to have a heck of a booth, including interactive displays
and a theater "that will surround your senses." (Like we really need any more
sense surrounding here in NYC!)
Brad
Brad:
Nah, I'm all conventioned out. Got to fly to Chicago next weekend for GraphX
and the long awaited unveiling of Quadex on a Sun Workstation. Ta da!
Had a long chat with one of Cg's product managers for the Sun. Sounds like a
hell of a frontend if it all works the way they say it will. Gee, for $50,000
we might even get some of the flexibility of a Mac <grin>.
–jon
P.S. Anybody else in for the GraphX show? I'm kicking around Sunday and Monday
with just my boss, who can get a little dull at times (luckily, he doesn't know
about CIS).