#CIM for Amiga
34 messages in this thread
Michael,
HMI allows you to up/download AND be in CO at AT THE SAME TIME. I feel
that CIS are being fools for ignoring a set of users who understand doing
two things at once ever since they took their machine out of the box.
Vic:
I agree with you in principal. However, with 9600 baud modems becoming the
norm rather than the exception, up/downloading is far more cost effective
with a program like ap than using a program like CIM while in CO. It is
rare that a file transfer keeps me tied up for more than a minute or
three… and CO is MUCH less expensive at 300 baud, while file tranfers are
more effecient and accurate at the higher speeds using error correction.
Michael
Michael,
I concur on the short times currently while downloading (for MY uses,
tho there are times it's 20 minutes). I would STILL like to be able to
drop into CO while it's going on tho (especially if there is someone else
there).
Vic:
Wouldn't that 20 minute download become more on the order of 40 minutes due
to the reduced bandwidth (if you were in CO whike Downloading)? If that's
true, than the download would cost twice as much. Is suppose that there
might be times when I would use that feature, but I doubt it would be very
often (and I'm in CO everyday… I'm sure that MOST users, those that don't
CO to begin with, wouldn't use it at all. Is CO _really_ better when other
people are there? I'll have to try that some time. <g>
I don;t know how HMI was implemented, but the 20 minute download were
[would] certainly not double to 40 mins…. sitting in CO, there's a LOT of
un-used bandwidth. Anyway, if even if it did double, assuming you were
going to be in CO for 40 mins anyway, you just got the download for 'free',
not twice as much <grin>.
– Keith
Keith:
The download wouldn't be 'free', unless you logged on at 300 baud… in
which case that 20 min (at 9600 baud) download would take considerably
longer… and I can't think of more than 8-10 forum members that spend that
much time in CO on a regular basis. Maybe I'm wrong… maybe more people
would come in to COnferences… I just doubt it.
Michael,
The download wouldn't be free…the CO would be free.
Don
You are closer to the mark saying the 'CO' is free, however the CO and the
download are not that comparable. One is relatively automatic and the
other highly interactive.
It is more fitting to say that if you were downloading and you decided to
upload something at the same time, the upload would be free, at least
having cost less of your own personal time.
-Chris
Chris,
The point being that downloading takes X amount of time, if you can
do something else, that doesn't really slow the download…then that
something else is essentially free. Since doing a download and upload at
the same time (besides the fact that uploads [to the libraries] are free
anyway) would essentially double the time anyway…since both attempt to
use as much of the bandwidth available…then neither would be "free".
However, something like reading the message base, or sitting in a CO would
be much closer to free, since they use very little of the
bandwidth…reading messages using more than being in a CO.
Don
"Since doing a download and upload at the same time (besides the fact
that uploads [to the libraries] are free anyway) would essentially double
the time anyway…"
Uploading while downloading under something like CIM shouldn't double the
online time, at least from my experience (which doesn't include CIM).
Assuming the files are roughly the same size, the transfer time should be
the same as if it were occurring in one direction only. The data link,
being full duplex (I've never known CIS to use HST modems), allows a 2400
baud modem to xfer at a full 2400bps IN BOTH DIRECTIONS, SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Most of the time, we are wasting half of our modem bandwidth.
Packet-switching protocols, which HMI must be, break up a single serial
line into packets belonging to different logical data streams as needed.
Since you can now have more than one logical stream of data flowing at
once, it follows that they can flow in parallel if your data line supports
full-duplex operation.
DNet, for instance, allows many, many different data streams over a
single serial line. If you 'download' 2 things at once, each trabsfer will
take twice as long as it normally would — the data are both going in the
same direction. BUT if you decide to upload and download, both will flow
at full speed — the data are both going in opposite directions and
effective throughput on a 2400bps data line is a full 4800bps.
Although it does not matter much, the upload during a download would be
closer to 'free' (chronologically) because the upload is explicitly going
in the opposite direction; A CO goes in both directions with most of the
data flowing in the same direction as a download, thus adding more time to
your download.
Like I said, it doesn't matter much. What matters is that something like
HMI is available, however one decides to use it. It is up to the
HMI/packet-switcher to intelligently handle the traffic for you.
-Chris
Chris,
yes…it's possible, presuming you're on a computer that can do two
things at once…which we are, but those with HMI software…can't. So I
suspect HMI isn't a full duplex protocol…where it could handle the load
anyway.
Don
Michael,
Unless you had one heck of a busy CO, I believe the impact on
download time would be insignificant. Figure how long it would take to get
1K of data to scroll across your screen in a CO, whereas during a
download…that'd take 1 second or real close to 1 second to get that much
data.
So 3 minutes of so to get 1 K of data from members during CO vs the
1 second delay in a download to send that 1 K of data. And that presumes
no compression of the CO information.
Don
Don:
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If I get a chance, maybe I'll test a couple
of downloads… once with CIM while in CO, and once just with CIM. Thanks.
Michael:
The point is that if you're in CO while downloading, it doesn't really
matter if it takes longer, as you're involved in the CO (otherwise you
wouldn't be there), so you'd have to pay for the time anyway. So as an
example, I decide I have 30 minutes worth of downloading to do, so I login
and start the download, and then go into CO. Now because I'm in CO that
half hour of downloading is translated into 1 hour of downloading. But I
get involved in the CO and stay there for one and a half hours. When I
sign off the downloads are done & waiting for me. If we went by the
current method, and I get involved in a 1.5 hour CO, and have a half hour
of downloading to do as well, that = 2 hours, 1.5 for CO .5 for dl.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Michael:
Maybe your right… and maybe with such a feature available to us, CO
activity would be higher.
Mike –
> The point is that if you're in CO while downloading, it doesn't really
> matter if it takes longer, as you're involved in the CO (otherwise you
> wouldn't be there), so you'd have to pay for the time anyway.
Ah!, but if you were signing on ONLY to conference for an hour, you would
do it at 300 bps (conferencing is a TIME-dependent operation), and if you
were signing on ONLY to DL, you would do it at 9600 (DLing is a SPEED-
dependent operation).
The DL is "free" only if it can be completed while conferencing, AT
CONFERENCING SPEED.
. . . . JimDoc, on AutoPilot
Jim:
Well, actually you'd pay for the DL, and the CO would be free. Does that
make more sense? If AP could use the HMI libraries it could then do all
the marked downloads, and in the meanwhile you could be enjoying yourself
in CO.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Michael,
I figure the normal CO would add maybe 3% to a download and probably
less. The whole point is that "that MOST users, those that don't CO to
begin with" might TRY it. For getting specific questions answered in a
hurry, nothing beats CO.
Vic…
No question that CO is a GREATplace to talk shop and get the most out of
both the Amiga and CIS. And it's FUN! So how come CO activity is so low? Do
we (those of us who CO nearly _every night of the week) get together too
late in the evening? Do you think that more people would COnference if they
were online downloading anyway? THAT would be great… I'd really like to
get more people in CO… even if they only drop in for 15 minutes while
downloading.
Michael:
I would imagine that more folks would be involved in CO if they could do
so while they're downloading files.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike:
Could very well be. Sure wish we had the oppoetunity to find out. 😉
Michael,
"Do you think that more people would COnference if they were online
downloading anyway?"
ABSOTIVELY!!!!! and THAT's why I've been all over CIS's case about
getting HMI for the Amiga.
Vic:
Ok… let's get cis to give us CIM so we can test the theory. 🙂
I don't WANT CIM, I just want the capability. I think we have better
programmers to do Amiga programs than CIS does.
Vic… That's the ticket… an Amiga-CIS program that can make use of the
HMI libraries!
"Wouldn't that 20 minute download become more on the order of 40
minutes.."
No way.. more like from 20 to 22 minutes. It's like multitasking; if two
programs are running, but one of them is almost constantly waiting for
input then the other program effectively runs at full speed. A few lines
of text every minute has essentially no impact on the data throughput.
Either that, or I am wrong and this HMI protocol is technically rotten.
But I wouldn't think so.
Think about it.. a 30 minute conference may prolong a (single or batch)
file download taking equally as long by perhaps 2 or 3 minutes. The impact
of your CO on your "online time" has effectively been sqaushed by 90%. If
you happened to be uploading something, also, the impact of THAT would
have been virtually NIL! You would have been utilitizing the other
'duplex' of your modem's bandwidth. From a human point-of-view, you're
getting 2.9 things done AT THE SAME TIME.
All you have to do is schedule all your up/downloding to coincide with
COs you're interested in, and voila!
-Chris
Chris,
Right!!!! Though I don't think they actually alllow up AND downloading
at the same time (silly people).
Cheistopher:
It's sounding better to me all the time! Thanks.
Michael,
You're mixing your oranges and apples..
Used _interactively_, a protocol like HMI allows you to use your time mor
productively at any speed.
The same comparison holds true when automation is introduced; Imagine the
advantages if AutoPilot could upload, download _and_ allowed you to jump
into a CO on impulse (or perhaps even collect/post your forum messages)
simultaneously?
The ultimate benefit is gained when your modem's full-duplex capability
is exploited, potentially delivering TWICE the throughput. The immediate
benefits can be substantial, just imagine the cumulative, long-term
benefits!
-Chris
Chris:
Again, thanks for the info & explanation!
My sentiments exactly, which is why I created ParaBIT for that kind of
"multiplexed" interaction between an Amiga terminal and an Amiga BBS. Even
more striking, is that technically the Amiga is a natural for an
implementation of HMI.. porting it should be a breeze, relatively
speaking.
-Chris
Out of curiousity, what's ParaBIT ? (I get the general idea, but what's the
product?)
– Keith
Glad you asked..(although it's not for sale, yet.. The current version of
the terminal is available for free, and it's here on CIS).
ParaBIT is terminal software (which incidentally uses DNet) which at this
point allows you to start downloads and uploads on a BBS at the same time,
taking advantage of full-duplex, bi-directional transmission. However,
whenever you start a transfer, you immediately come back to a BBS menu
prompt… The up/downloads run in their own little windows while you
continue to use whatever area of the BBS you like (DOWNLOAD, UPLOAD &
READING/POSTING at the same time or online games or whatever).
Although the throughput is roughly twice what you're accustomed to, it is
more like 2.9x normal. That is because like CO, most of your time browsing
through messages is idle as far as the modem is concerned; Alot data can
be transferring with ParaBIT while you're reading a message.
If you go to the Telecom lib, you can find the ParaBIT terminal by
typing:
"browse key:parabit"
I have not released the BBS end of it yet, so my BBS is the only one
running it; although one should be able to adapt the host/BBS end of
ParaBIT to any flexible ARexx-capable BBS software (I'm using Proteus BBS
by Rick Huebner — also available from the Telecom lib).
Fortunately all the complexity is on the BBS's end. Once the caller
connects to the BBS and starts up ParaBIT, everything is automatic.
Download the terminal, give the BBS a call, and experience it for
yourself 🙂
-Chris
Thanks for the info.