Toaster in A4000?
31 messages in this thread
Can anyone tell me if the Video Toaster will fit (or should I say work in
the new A4000)? I currently run my Toaster in an A3000 (I cut the case).
Is the video slot the same in the A4000? If it does work will there be an
advantage over the A3000 to run the Toaster in the A4000?
-Bill
You can fit it in if you cut the case? (Yup, a new amiganiac)
-GN
Someone around here came up with "Amigalomaniac". It seems to fit <grin>.
The A4000 Video Connectors are the same as the A3000 ones… no difference
there… The difference is that the Video Slot is at the buttom of the
machine so it makes it even easier to install a Toaster in. Still to cut
the back of the machine to allow the Input #1 to be acessed. We haven't
tried it yet!
Pat,
The A4000's video connector is a _superset_ of the A3000 slot. It
contain quite a number of additional signals in order to support the extra
color depth available on the machine.
Dean
DKB Software
Pat,
At WOCA someone oblserved that the thickness of the Toaster may cause a
fit problem with some compnents that stick up from the motherboard. I
couldn't get close engough through the crowd to see what he ws pointing to
though.
Aside from physical fit, are all the basic signal timings on that
connector the same?
CBM when asked would only say, "The Toaster is not an A4000 product".
That apparently was a rehearsed answer as it is word for word from 3
different CBM people at the show.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Rumors I have heard indicate Toaster may not like the AGA, though. Anyone
heard of this one?
{@_@}
At ImageWorld in NYC, I heard of the Toaster and 4000 working together with
the Toaster in a Toaster Cozy, the separate box w/ video slot which is made
for 3000 owners who are loath to cut a square cm from the back of the 3000
case.
Joanne,
A NewTek technician and a video salesperson at ImageWorld told me that
they "usually" get along OK.
Jonathan
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Only Amiga makes
\\// it possible…
And I heard from someone inside Newtek that they're not really sure if the
Toaster works inside an A4000, because they weren't sure if the A4000 that
CBM sent them for testing was on the up-and-up, or if there was an actual
electrical problem, or a chip-signal problem, or who knows what… I
really wish I could find a definitive answer, Toaster compatibility is the
one thing holding me back from an A4000.
John,
I think that CBM made a terrible mistake vis a vis the Toaster. Since it
is, to the largest degree, the most popular resident of the video slot,
they should have accepted its size as a new defacto standard. This should
have been reflected in the 3000 and 4000.
Of course, if there is an electronic incompatibility, that is a
different story. C= seems to insist that it won't work, although that
seems to stem from a question of support. I believe that they took the
same stance with the 3000 as well. It would not have hurt them to work
better with NewTek.
Jonathan
There's no love between NewTek and CBM. NewTek is well-known for either
self-interested behavior or arrogance, depending on how you want to look at
it. On the other hand, it's not right for CBM to expect NewTek to carry
the Amiga flag for them. If CBM can't do the job when it comes to
marketing the Amiga to the world, they should not be angry that NewTek
won't do it for them.
John,
I agree with you totally. However, I think that if the two companies
could come to a marketing agreement (although NewTek really doesn't need
C= anymore, just its 2000s), they could really achieve something. How
about combining Toaster and Amiga tech at the chip level? IBM just
announced that DVI is going to ship in their machines at the board level,
and Intel announced that they are going to merge DVI with the 486 line…
this does not bode well for the "video computer".
Jonathan
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Only Amiga makes
\\// it possible…
I bet NewTek would love to do that. I'm sure they've asked to do that.
I'm sure they've tried to think of all sorts of ways to get CBM to part
with their chip set. I'm sure CBM has tried to think of all sorts of ways
for NewTek to put their chips on a board or on a motherboard. But both
parties think they have something infinitely valuable, and neither has
liked the terms of the other in the past. In the computer business, I
think people expect computer companies to be more generous with developer
support and assistance, re: Apple not second-sourcing the Mac causes some
friction, too. But I'm sure CBM knows it'll make a lot more selling an
A2000 box than selling a handful of chips to NewTek. And NewTek knows it
can make just as much scratch by wrapping its chips and software in an
A2000. Eventually, I bet NewTek makes it's own box, so they can grab a
bigger slice of the pie.
I think that the antagonistic attitude between these two companies will
eventually work against both of them. Obviously, without a Video Toaster,
the Amiga's presence in the American market would have been *much* smaller.
At the same time, NewTek is going to have to spend R&D money (to do their
own box) that they could have avoided. I would imagine that there will not
be a Toaster II that takes advantage of the AGA chipset…more likely that
it will be a standalone "video workstation", made through and through by
NewTek.
I, for one, would be quite interested in a NewTek platform,
especially if they make it anything like the Amiga.
Jonathan
Spending your own money to control something you own isn't a bad idea.
Working with a company that's big, shifty, and prone to stupidity is not a
good idea. AGA would do a lot for the Toaster, it would make ToasterPaint
look a damn sight better. But why, after hearing endless complaints about
the A3000 versus the Toaster form factor, did they ignore the Toaster a
second time? I think CBM did it on purpose.
Jonathan,
If they do make a workstation it will not be general purpose. I can't see
NewTek doing all the OS development that is required to drive a bare-bones
machine. I would expect they would develop on an existing platform just
for that reason (why reinvent the wheel when your into selling things that
fly…). They will more likely develop T II on a clone ('486 and up) or a
Mac platform – possibly a NeXT. Maybe they will make some deal with
Silicon Graphics to make like an "Iris Jr.".
I'm sure NewTek is so soured on CBM that they are going great guns to get
off the Amiga platform with any T II product. I mean, if you owned NewTek
and you got treated by CBM the way they treated Newtek, wouldn't you focus
on getting away from them? And you'd take a significant part of
theAmerican Amiga market with you? What a great business manuever –
revenge and increased sales in one felled swoop!.
wmc – via Autopilot!
John,
Since we are playing "pediction poker" here, I bid that NewTek's next
effort will be a PC resident board that is D1 on board and Y/C (and/or
component) in and out with a coupled sound switcher as an option.
The reason that is not so far fetched is that most of the inboard cards
that are "Toaster compatible" or ehance the Toaster's useability actually
go in the PC slots. Clones are easier to get than A2000s. Clone makers
are easier to work with (always looking for some claim to advantage over
cometition). And IBM would be willing to (and may already have) paid for
the development of PC compatible technology by NewTek to get a jump in the
"next computer frontier – Desktop video" (they will never allow as how
the Amiga has already charted that frontier..:^}
Oh yeah, Don't forget the Toaster network – multiple machines that can run
the Toaster software as independent workstations or synchronously
controlled by a single workstation in a multi-machine multimedia
extravaganza!
(Now it will be interesting to see how much of this makes it to other
boards as "factoids"….;^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
Those Toaster add-on cards go in the PC slots? They're only there to suck
power, not logic. And to port the Toaster board to another platform
entails the port of all the software. I think that's the biggest obstacle
for NewTek. Hardware is easy, software is hard. 🙂
Well I removed my A4000 from its casing and installed a Video Toaster in
it. When you start to run the software you get the Please stand by, and
the Program output is all garbaged and not even close to input one, then
the control monitor goes to a black screen and the system hangs there…
This was My experiance… the Board by the way does not fit unless you
want to cut the casing…
The problem I had may be a result of the power supply… so I have a
Toaster Cozy on the way from my Distributor, and will be installing the
toaster in that… I hope It will work…
Forrest
Forrest,
Thank you very much for the report. Please, please, please keep us posted
on the Toaster Cozy experiment outcome (sense a beg there?). I noticed
the Cozy is supposed to eventually support two graphics cards. A Toaster
Supergen combo might be nice…
wmc – via Autopilot!
Jonathon,
CBM didn't make a "terrible mistake vis a vis the Toaster" — NewTek did.
CBM published the form factor specs and NewTek chose to ignore it.
-sja
Steve,
I understand that there was published spec…but there are also such things
as defacto standards, too. When an overwhelming majority of video slots
are occupied by one particular device, it may be time to "revise" the spec.
Jonathan
Jonathan,
You have to remember that the Amiga is actually a Commodore International
Product that CBM signs up to sell. I don't believe the Americans have
that much to do with the hardware design (I could be wrong tho – just
guessing). Since its market is primarily Europe, where the Toaster "Fears
to Tread" (i.e. no PAL or SECAM support) there is no REAL reason for
Commodore International to really give that much weight to an upstart
American company that is too cocky to follow standards. (Not my opinion,
just putting a harried Euro-exec spin on the issue…:^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
I understand the way Commodore works…and I also understand that they are
a money making vehicle. Call me crazy, but I think that their current
attitude is going to cost them money.
It would seem to me that they are costing Newtek and themselves sales.
Imagine, if you will, if the Toaster dropped into the 4000 with no
problem…it would be the perfect combination. Of course, it would be
interesting to see what NewTek could do with AGA, as well (and you best
believe that they would put the better throughput and color depth to some
use, after all). A lot of folks are making their living with Toasters,
and would happily ditch their current A2000 setups for something that is
superior.
Now that PC and Mac based Toaster clones are coming (check out the FAST
Video Machine…in some ways, a more capable "Toaster", and a better
value) that is available for ISA and NuBus slots. The 4000 might be
NewTek's chance, after all.
Jonathan
Jonathan, via AutoPilot // Only Amiga makes
\\// it possible…
Jonathan,
That would be nice, but I can't see NewTek having the grace to admit that
an upgrade to A4000 technolgy support would be a good thing. I don't see
any real end to the NewTek Hates CBM Hates NewTek circle that has
developed. I'm beginning to think that the best solution is to look at
the DMI boards, FC24, IV24 or other boards from manufacturers that are on
better terms with CBM so that a TOTAL technology upgrade is not required
when the second machine becomes a necessity. CBM is not going to make
2000s forever.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Steve,
I have owned C= machines since the days of the the venerable Vic-20.
C= frequently violates their own specs until the day dawns that, all of a
sudden, they decide that they have to follow them for some obscure reason.
Then, C= breaks every peripheral in sight, including their own when they
force compliance.
I do not think we would have as many problems with C= peripherals if
they DID follow their own specifications from day one.
Brian
->on AutoPilot
I suspect that it was a case where they could BARELY get the toaster to
FIT in a 2000 case to begin with. I'd like to think that NewTek tried to
follow the spec, but they were pushing the envelope and things just didn't
happen right.
With what can be done with ASICs these days, why could NewTek make one fit
now? Is muleheadishness contagious? (But C= seems to be recovering.)
// Brian — Cruising on AutoPilot…..
\X/
I think it is NewTek's responsibility to follow CBM's physical design spec.
However, as others have pointed out (and we all know) CBM violates their
own specs on a regular basis — one quick example is the mouse pointer, the
light source is coming from the "wrong" side.
The mouse pointer is one of those odd situations you get when you try to
do a "3D" effect using shading. In it's case, the shadow *ought* to be on
the lower right edge of the pointer, which is such a small part, it lets
the pointer become hard to distinguish properly when displayed on a screen
of the same major color as the main body of the pointer. I've had the
same problem when designing bitmaps which contain diagonals, and it's a
tough call to make.
So now you have to fiddle with it. You can go two ways. You can assume
the light source isn't coming directly from the upper left, thus allowing
highlinghting on one side of the arrow and shadow on the other side. If
you assume the light source comes more from the left than the top, then
the lower leftmost edges of the arrow get highlighted, and the upper
rightmost edges get shadow. If you assume the light source comes more
from the top than the left, the upper rightmost edges get highlighted,
while the lower leftmost edges get shadow. So it can really go either
way. Both assumptions are incorrect, but are the only ways you can get a
highlight and shadow to appear. (Me, I'd tend to agree with you and go
for the leftmost orientation, but Commodore obviously didn't. Actually,
on a Protected mode screen, the pointer gets squashed vertically, so their
orientation looks more correct there than otherwise…)
There… Now I've wasted a couple more paragraphs on this subject. Kinda
nitpickey of me, isn't it? <grin>
–>Steve Bennett
John,
I'm thinking of a second machine to help with the conflict between
rendering chores and "office work" chores. But I also thought about a
second Toaster or FC24 or other 24 bit card so that I can render in either
place. The machine I get would need to run the Toaster as well sinc if
the primary machine breaks I wan to be able to move the Toaster over and
still be able to use it. So, I, like you, am not going to plonk my money
down on a 4000 until I know if it will run the Toaster. (It'd also help
if they come out with a SCSI II on board instead of an IDE..)
wmc – via Autopilot!