#V-lab motion
11 messages in this thread
Hi Ed,
Thought I'd try to connect about Vlab again. I'm, nearly, jumping on
the wagon. If I can truly work out an edit script and do clean audio editing
(audio that can be locked up to video tape and inserted ) at the price of
Vlab… its a big plus. Going into Mac land looks like a minimum of $3000
more.
So I wondered more about your direct experience. Sounds like a big
hard drive is important. 1.5 -3 gig? What size do you work with?? Right now
I have only a 255mg removeable syquest and 200mg on another dirve (quantum)…
both will do sustained data transfer at 2.5 – 3 mg/sec. with the SYQ seeking
in 13.5 millisec, and the quantum in 11 millisec.
Have you had crashes? or any other hangups?
I have 10mg of ram total, I wonder if I need more?? What size transfer
buffer do you have to use (I've heard that 6-8mg is a good idea)?? I know that
Studio 16 needed lots of buffering in order to keep up with the seek and
playback from disk of the various tracks. It helped to be using two seperate
drives for the source samples. Merging tracks to a single track (sample) was
the only solution to playback problems.
Do you have a 24 bit video card? I've thought I would have to get a
Retina Z3 to be truly functional… but I don't know what effect that has on
playback speed. I know what effect it will have on my wallet. Could I do
without the card??
How good is it for capturing still frames. Can it grab a stable full
rez image that can be worked with in other programs??
Does Vlab capture 30 frames/sec or 60 fields/sec?? I'm not sure, but I
think that it makes a difference when working with time-code.
In one note you spoke of 75% JPEG as being achievable… do you have an
accelerator card or are you using a stock 3000 (mine is a standard 25/30
machine just as it came out of the box.)??
Have ou ever tried to convert the Vlab output to a quicktime (MAC or
WIN) movie… I wonder if it can be done??
I'm a little nervous about sinking alot of money into Vlab… since
Commodore engineers (in the forum) are talking aobut the next Amiga being a
completely different animal. That would make Vlab a great tool so long as it
met my editing needs but raises the poosibility that it could be a cul de sac.
But that's always a problem with computers (and video gear.. there's always
been somethng smaller lighter and better quality at a lower cost… the toaster
is an example to be sure…. The answer for me is to try to be sure that the
machinery I use serves the work I'm doing whether it has all the MAC bells &
whistles or not. I've been vvery happy with Amigas for 10 years)
I guess I'm looking for a reason to buy in but want to know about the
warts so I don't have unrealistic expectations.
Thanks for any real lfe experience you can shed on Vlab/tocatta
All best to you
Tom… drive friendly in texas
Tom… drive friendly in texas,
Sorry about the response time but I've been playing really hard lately <grin>!
Let's see, question about the VLAB-M — I hope you have seen some of my
previous postings on the VLAB because they addressed some of the things you are
asking about in more detail from my perspective.
The weak-link with the VLAB-M software (MovieShop version 1.2) is audio
editing! It's about as simiplistic as you can get — specify an audio file to
play while the video stream is playing. Any audio editing out side of simply
playing has to currently be done with another program called Samplitude (which
is provided). This is a pain if all you want to do is shorten an audio segment,
but sufficient if you want to do fun things like add echo, cut & paste, invert,
reverse, etc. I am also experiencing a slight delay of the audio playback that
is noticeable if you are doing head shots (lip-sync problem). I've heard
rumors that the upcoming MovieShop Version 2.0 software will fix the slight
audio delay problem, but don't know if any audio editing facilities have been
added. If you want to lock audio to video for insertion, I suspect you would
need to use SMPTE "optional module" for the Toccata audio board.
When it comes to capturing decent video, there is NO such thing as a big hard
drive <grin>. The first drive I abused with my VLAB-M was a Syquest 270
removeable — I was able to capture about 5 minutes of video at a 50% JPEG
factor setting (looked like VHS tape playback to me with some visible JPEG
artifacts). I soon went out and purchased a Micropolis 1Gb drive so I don't
really know how well suited the Syquest is for heavy duty editing. I'm now
running the Micropolis with a 80% JPEG factor and getting what I consider very
impress output. I don't know how long of a video clip a can get on the
Micropolis. I was messing around one day and don't remeber what JPEG factor I
had set (probably 50%) but I recorded over 12 minutes of straight video before
I got bored and stopped it. To me, this was incredible especially when I look
back at my little adventure with the Broadcaster 32 board.
I have dedicated 6Mb RAM for MovieShop buffering, but I have 18Mb in my
system. How much RAM to use depends if your drives are up to the task of high
sustained data rates. I noticed little difference if I went above 6MB, in fact,
the 6Mb buffer offered just a little improvement over the MovieShop default of
4Mb but I have the memory so I said why not <grin>! If I didn't like
multitasking so much, I'd probably give some more.
I have experienced crashes <surprise, surprise>! Through experimentation, I
have learned there are things you can do to cause a crash. Most of these are
associated with setting MovieShop parameters, so once you've found the magical
settings, it becomes pretty stable. As an example, if you monkey with the
transfer buffers after using the system at least once, then I highly recommend
you save your changes as defaults, quit MovieShop, and then restart it! If you
don't follow this procedure, I will bet that your system will crash as soon as
you attempt to record/playback after the change. Makes it a pain to setup, but
this might prevent you inventing the same new curse words I spouted while
setting mine up <grin>!
I use the IV24 24 bit RGB/video board. You do not need a 24 bit board to use
MovieShop! I use a good old flicker-free Amiga screen for all the MovieShop
windows, but I only have certain ones open — the ones I use most <wink>. It is
my understanding that with the Retina board will give you two things I don't
have: A huge visible screen to open ALL the MovieShop windows on (if your
monitor can support it), and the ability to view the MovieShop reference
images/icons in full color vice my 16 color greyscale images (more like
greyscale blobs!). I personally don't miss either but wouldn't turn it down if
someone wanted to give it to me <grin>.
You can export images out of any captured video scene which can then be
processed by any Amiga image processing software! The exported images will
reveal the JPEG artifacting much more readily than the video stream does and so
if you are looking for good images, you need to bump up the JPEG factor to
around 80% or higher. I use the IV24 for framegrabbing becuase it's obviously
much faster. The VLAB-M does 60 fields/second. When exporting (or even
importing) images, you can select field or frame mode.
I have the VLAB-M and Toccata boards installed in my A3000 that has a 25MHz
'040 squeezed into it. For all the effects you may want to do (they are all
rendered), the '040 definately helps (I'm going to get an '060 for sure now)
but I don't think it has much influence on the capturing/playback of the video.
I believe the biggest bottle neck in any machine to achieving the 100% JPEG
factor setting (the highest quality) is it's ability to transfer sustained data
rates across the zorro bus through your SCSI controller and finally to your
hard drive. I have used a maximum 80% JPEG factor with no problem but don't
know what my upper limit is.
I'm in the process of converting some captured video into Amiga anim files. I
have no doubt that I could export these same individual images to a MAC or
CLONE to create quicktime or AVI files (no software on the Amiga creates these
file formats as far as I know).
Technology makes sinking any money into anything a risky adventure! Aren't
you pleased as punch you bought that 386 doorstop <wicked grin>? I believe the
VLAB-M and Toccata hardware are great (or I wouldn't be getting the results I'm
so impressed with) but the software does need some work. Fortunately,
MacroSystem is based in Germany where the Amiga is still a viable product, so I
expect future software releases for sometime. Whether VLAB-M mets your editing
needs, I really can't say. If you're one of the fanatical and expect that
elusive "broadcast quality" then you better wait for the next generation board
which is supposed to support even higher sustained data rates through the Amiga
zorro (3) bus. As a potential reference, if you have seen the PAR, I suspect
the current VLAB-M quality is very comparable considering they use the same
type of technology.
It definitely has some warts (doesn't everything – they just don't tell you),
but I still find it impressive and useable! Your best bet is to check it out at
a knowledgeable dealer, then you could make a better determination. If you
can't find a knowledgeable dealer (highly likely these dark days in the Amiga
kingdom) you're welcome to come see mine even if it is one heck of a long drive
<grin>.
EdV
Yo Ed… many thanks for the great update. Have checked out MAC land and
prices and its out of sight, impossssssible for me right now. Plus, MACz are
switching to PCI bus, which though wildly faster than Nubus, is still 9 months
minimum off… then cards have to be designed… All in all a good time to stay
with the Amiga a little longer, at least, and see what shakes out.
Got one last question:
* Can you preview a sequence without building (rendering) your sequence to disk
first.. i.e. will Vlab play your editlist by seeking and playing back seqential
samples?? (I've heard yes… but I've wondered how much of that is hype and how
much true in proctice.)
* oops and one more… is the audio recording clean?? good connectors, etc etc.
Also word is that Amiga is almost back out of bankruptcy, that indeed a
new one is fairly far along (but can't be ready for 1-1.5 years… when it is,
there will be a new operating system.. perhaps even a windows based OS (heaven
forbid).
MUCHO thanx Tom dirve friendly (really,.. that's on a texas road
sign)
Tom,
Saw your post in the DTVFORUM but decided not to waste the bandwidth <grin>!
I don't know how prices compare on those other wannabe desktop platforms – I
have serious Amiga tunnel vision! My Amigas have not disappointed me yet. Hope
your feelings that the `bank-rupture' is almost over are right since I'd like
to see A4000s come back down to a more hobbiest price level <grin>!
I'm not sure I understand your question about previewing a sequence without
rendering. If you don't render the transistions they can't be performed! I said
that rather matter-of-factly, but I don't truely know because I've never tried
it. I'll give that a try in the next couple of days and let you know, but I
suspect it's a no-go. On the other hand, if you change all the transitions to
non-rendered ones (straight abrupt cuts), it's not a problem <grin>.
The audio is "CD" quality, meaning it can be recorded in 16-bit resolution at
44.1KHz. Actually, the Toccata board will record/playback audio at 16-bit at
48KHz for it's maximum audio response. This is major over kill for video in my
opinion. The Toccata offers some interesting realtime compression modes for
your audio that roughly crams 16-bit data into 8-bit. I've been playing with
these modes and they are great for video use, however, I've discovered I can't
edit these samples <bummer>! Maybe this will be fixed in a later software
release <fingers-crossed>.
The connectors for the Toccata board are handled primarily via 1/4" phono
plugs and Y-style adaptors to RCA jacks. I didn't think much of this at first,
but I don't know of a better way to handle 3 stereo line and 1 stereo
microphone inputs and 1 stereo line output! Oh yea, if you want to use all
these inputs, you give up a slot (only the slot cover is used, but the slot
becomes useless anyways) unless you do some hardware modifications like I did
(slots are too valuable <grin>).
EdV
Yeah, I was talking about previewing hard cuts only, without doing a build…
that what Eric at Noah Ji's claimed… is the playback real time or is there a
slight delay as the hard-dirve goes to the next sequence. Ususally that's a
function of buffer size.
Mostly, i wanted to be able to be able to check the timing of an edit
point to see if the action flows right. Don't need to see the transition be it
dissolve or effect. I'm happy to build those later once I have my sequence and
timing set.
Interestingly premiere does show some simple effects… i.e. dissolve,
wipe in this sort of preview mode… nothing fancy but enough to be able to see
& feel how long the transition is when its non cuts. I'd be so happy to get
rid of tape in the decision making process i'd think i'd died and gone to
heaven.
Saw in the paper today that the future is closer than I thought. Video
CD ROM is going to be a fact early next year. Look for the end of v-tape…
More convinced than ever that going totally digital is IT.
Sounds like audio is good and very workable. Still wondering if you
can "shorten" an existing audio clip without editing the sample by using movie
shop (have you used Studio 16??… that's the sense I mean.. where you collect
your smaples then deposit them on the timeline and trim them there (for
playback) without actually hacking the original sample. Again Noah Ji says
yes, but I thought you had said otherwise.
I too am a dedicated Amiga-ite. Love this little 3000 (especially
after using this 386 boat anchor).
I will know about other non-linear sys soon. In the same studio group
I office in there is an AVID, Premiere-MAC, and now a Flyer. I'm going to work
on Premiere tommorrow to get a concrete feel for it. But to tell you the
truth… they DON'T GET CLEAN OUTPUT even from their Quadra 840… it drops
frames randomly during "print to tape". That's suposed to be ironed out in
the next MAC but that won't be till PCI buses arrive on PoewerPC.. at least a
year.
If Vlab is indeed clean for sustained output.. its clearly the way to
go now. Flyers sound very good… well engineered, documented etc. but gotta
wait and see if they are all their billed to be.. anyway I'm less and less
interested in tape. I just wnat ot be able to port my end product to disks
that WIN and MAC can read.
Technological half-life is too nerve racking for me. My A1000 served
me well till '90, my 3000 since.
all best, Tom :^) (read that :^) reads as "smile" in InterNet-eze
Tom,
I had to put your "preview a clip" request on the back burner because I
received a nice little surprise package from NoahJi's yesterday. I loaded
MovieShop 2.1 last night and just had to do a little playing. I am pleasantly
surprised at how well audio now works 🙂
The good news: audio is synced to the video — no more slight delay. Here are
a few words from the ReadMe file:
"Audio is the main and exciting new feature of 2.0, and has been changed in 3
significant ways. Of course you'll need the Toccata to enable these features.
1) Audio needs its own partition on another hard drive for best results. It
will take much less hard drive space than the video. It's possible to dedicate
a small partition on your system hard drive for the audio partition. IDE will
work just fine for audio, but isn't recommended for video. An easy way to do
this, is to use an available partition on you boot drive. Otherwise, You will
have to reformat your system hard drive to set up this audio partition. The
most convenient way to do this is to Amiga/DOS format your VLab Motion video
partition, move the Workbench to this 'video partition' drive, reformat the
system hard drive to generate an audio partition and a WB partition. Then move
WB back to your newly reformatted system drive from the video drive.
2) Audio now always follows video. Block operations like cut, copy, and paste
will keep the audio lip-synchronous with the video. The same is true of
grouping and splitting video.
3) Audio is now in the timeline. Video files that are pulled into the timeline
now contain audio. The audio files can also be put in the timeline and will
appear as black bars. Audio can be separated from video scenes by dragging the
scenes into the new 'Sounds' window. These audio files can then be used in the
timeline in the same way as imported audio files. In the timeline you can
define envelopes for the audio. An envelope describe the level of the audio.
For example, if the envelope is defined as 50% at a certain point, the audio
there would be at half its original volume.
To define an envelope, double click on the audio or video scene and a new
window will open. In this window you can define if you want the audio muted
and you can define the envelope by marking and then splitting the audio. This
is hard to define in words, but you can split an audio file into as many pieces
as you want. You do this by clicking on split, and the mouse pointer turns
into a cross. The audio is represented by a thin line ( by default is set at
the top) of the white (video) or black (audio) timeline bar. Move the cross
over the scene you want to change. If you click at the desired point in the
audio, you'll see that the scene line is marked. You can now define the level
of this mark by using the sliders. You can define all types of shapes, like
troughs, ramps, plateaus, multiple up/down zig-zags, etc. Experiment with
these and you'll soon learn about the power of this new feature.
You can put as many audio scenes in the timeline as you want. If there is more
than one, you'll have to render the audio using the new button in the timeline
control. Audio rendering is significantly faster than video rendering."
The bad news: as indicated above, you end up giving a hard disk partition to
the audio part as well as a partition for the video part. Looks like I'm going
to have to purchase another hard drive — first time in my life I've ever felt
the the SCSI 7 drive capability might not be enough! You now also have to
render the audio as well as the video, but you can now supposedly do audio
mixing and import audio clips — so I figure it's a good trade-off <grin>.
My playing last nite proved to me the audio syncing truely works. Digitized a
video/audio clip (about 5 minutes worth) and broke it up into a few smaller
segments (2 20 second clips and one that was the remaining time). I then used
the timeline to reverse the order the 20 sec clips with a simple fade through
transition. I used a lot of talking head video to ensure the audio sync was up
to snuff. Worked like a dream! Audio stayed synced even through the rendered
transition. Now we're talking NLE…
EdV
Ed,
Ooo, my VLab-M has not yet arrived (ordered from Safe Harbor), so maybe
it will come with the new software! How much space does the audio take up
on the hard drive. I have a 170meg external Quantum I could dedicate to
audio. Would that be enough the complememt a gig or so of video on my
Baraccuda?
…Warp Engine Engaged…
-Paul-
Paul,
I didn't get a chance to play with the new software since last time, but I
did check out the updated ABOUT menu in MovieShop after I digitized some video
& audio that first time around. Found some neat stuff about hard disk
consumption there! About 4 minutes of digitizing at 70% JPEG factor for video
and A-Law compression for audio ate 110Mb on my video drive (Micropolis) and
11Mb on my [temporary] audio drive (Syquest 270). Your mileage may be different
but it suggests to me that your Quantum should be adequate:-)
EdV
Ed,
Just to let you know I bit the bullet and ordered a VLAB-M. I'll let
you know how I make out with it in my 4000 with a Barracuda drive and Warp
Engine SCSI II. But I am curious about you using your IV24 for frame
grabbing. I now have a regular V-LAB which, beside tedious video clip
grabbing, I use to for some digital darkroom stuff. I digitize negatives
on a light table with my Hi-8 camcorder, sending them directly to ADpro
for processing. From your comments I would gather I would be better off
holding on to my old V-LAB for this kind of work rather than letting the
new VLAB-M take over this role?
…Warp Engine Engaged…
-Paul-
Paul,
All right VLAB-M buddy <grin> — I was starting to think I that SCALA and I
are the only folks in the universe that have one of these systems. I'll be
waiting to hear about your experiences and reactions with it. Let me know what
version MovieShop software you end up with — if you get V2.0, I'll be real
jealous!
I have zero experience with the V-LAB framegrabber so I can't relate to the
process you have to go through to capture a single image, but I would expect it
to be more straight forward, and therefore, faster than exporting images from a
video scene captured by VLAB-M (after all isn't that what the V-LAB was
designed for <grin>). I believe your decision will be made by how often you
have to do this capture process. I would hang on to your V-LAB until you've
done it both ways. Of course, I recommend the IV24 because a capture is as
simple as: see the image, push the hot-key, 3 seconds later – BINGO captured
image <grin>!
EdV
Ed,
The V-LAB card is VERY convenient since it comes with an ADpro loader
and ADpro can run on V-LAB's screen. In effect it is as if ADpro gained a
PIP video window and a grab button. The image goes directly into Adpro.
Very nice!
So I guess I'll keep it. Errr…SLOTS, I need more slots! 😉
…Warp Engine Engaged…
-Paul-