#Retina Z-III/OS 3.1
32 messages in this thread
I recently bought the Retina Z-III and so far I am less than
impressed with its performance. Besides the manual being
uninformative, nearly all of the "Readme" files are in German. After
quite a few hours of plodding along, I finally got it properly setup.
OK, here's the big question:
I realize that OS 3.1 is not supported yet (RetinaEMU tells me that
all the time), but what am I actually loosing without the support?
The Retina board is emulating my WorkBench (at least to some degree),
however, the manual doesn't really say what the WorkBench emulation
should give you. When I change the WorkBench to a 4 Color setup, all
of the icons change to 4-color icons (so much for a 256+ color
workbench). When I run AIBB 6.5, all of the graphics tests
(especially LineTest) are SLOWER than before I installed the board.
I've tried both Retina Standard and Blitter modes, with various
resolutions, but still the same results. Would the OS 3.1
incompatability have this kind of impact? I recently read a review
of the Retina Z-III that was posted here on CI$ and, although the
author's OS wasn't supported, his AIBB results completely blew mine
away (on an '030 system)!
My System setup includes:
A3000T-040 (25MHz)
12 MB Fast RAM (80ns)
2 MB Chip RAM
Retina Z-III 4 MB
RetinaEMU 2.2
OS 3.1
Any ideas would be appreciated!
Many thanks,
Alan Henry – Digital Plastic
F100-PW-220e Inside
Usualy it's pretty easy to patch the Retina software to run without
requesters on WB 3.1. However, you do get mungwall and enforcer hits
under WB3.1 caused by the Retina software. Thus I can't recommend
doing the patch…
Regarding speed: you must run the software using the Blitter mode in
order to get the very good speed results. BUT, I still wasn't able to
use the Blitter software with ANY program and I'm real angry. Nobody
noted the problems of the Blitter emulation and it's inability to run
high resolutions wich was the main reason for me to buy the Retina
III. So, you're stucked with the very slow normal emulation. A real
pain…
To quote comments from MacroSystem Germany: "Making the work in high
resolutions is to much work.". Well? Guess what I think of it.
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
You mean there's a problem with the blitter at higher resolutions? I
thought so, but NoahJi's has been closed for a while. I've been unable to
get anything to run on the blitter at 1152×900, but I do have Final Writer
at that res on the standard Retina output, which leaves something to be
desired, and Workbench and WordWorth at 1120×832 on the blitter, which is
decently fast.
Is it a hardware problem, or a software problem, do you know? Because
there's supposed to be new software any day now.
Still and all, I'm disappointed with the card.
Paul – wearing my black construction paper funeral suit
The problem is software only. I hope the following description helps out (as
allready indicated by you: the manual surely doesn't):
The Retina III software doesn't allow you to define 8 bit groups for screen
modes. Now you MUST use a 8 bit group for the blitter mode wich is 8 Bit chunky
emulation. The group does hold the screen frequency and timing info required by
the software to decide wich screen mode when a program is asking for a specific
screen size. As there are no individual screen modes available, you are forced
to use that single default group. That group doesn't include any useable mode
for higher resolutions and >70 hz vertical frequency. Selecting any 4 bit
screen mode in the Retina emulation causes the software to switch back to the 8
bit mode selected in the RetinaScreenMode program.
Anyway, no matter what I do the screen timings are far from being correct and I
think you do risk to damage a low cost monitor on a long term base. In case of
my 20" Nanao T660: the monitor is not even able to move the screen into the
right position as the Retina screem is far way off.
As said, using the normal emulation with the 1152*900 (that's what I like to
use too) is a REAL PAIN and not worth the money for the Retina III.
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
Huh. Just gets more and more confusing. I mean, I see what you're
saying, I think, but it's not really the problem I had. When I tried 1152×900
on the BLT, the screen was all off, like you say, in timings and the like, but
the wierder thing was that graphics usually held in CHIP MEM I guess, like
icons, buttons, and so on, were all blank, on Workbench as well as
applications. What really bugs me too is that I can't get most of the BLT
screens to properly fill up my monitor – even such as 800×600, which just takes
up a corner and is thus essentially useless.
And I hardly have an unusual monitor – it's a NEC 5FG, and it's in their
monitor description file.
Anyway, I'm going to call NoahJi's, which handles the card in the USA, on
Monday, so I'll tell you what they say about the new software, since I think
they're actually writing it.
Paul – wearing my black construction paper funeral suit
You got it: the Retina Blitter mode is useless as long as you can't fill out
the monitor. And the software still allocates CHIP memory causing major
problems as you can't open several 1280*1024 screens/windows with some
programs. Now, MacroSystem claims the CHIP memory is only allocated and not
used because of a bug in the software. I may believe this claim because screen
updates are much faster than what you normaly get. However, why didn't they
manage to fix the bug in nearly one year if it's just a "minor" bug like they
claim? Bug or not: it doesn't work right.
Yes, NoahJi's is the distributor in the US. But the hardware/software is made
by MacroSystem in Germany. So, it's not NoahJi's who is to blame.
Beside, if you want to know another "misadventure" of the Retina Z3:
Take a greyscale ramp with 256 greyshades from 0 to 255 (you can easily use the
ADPro BackDrop loader for this) and display it on the Retina in 8 Bit mode (not
24 bit). Count the number of visible greyshades! The number of shades should be
up to 256 shades as this is what you would expect from an 8 Bit mode… but
you'll see there are much less shades visible. Make your own thoughts…
But in the end, what gfx board can you buy able to do high res? For 24 Bit high
res stuff the Retina Z3 really is great. Picasso or Retina Z2 simply can't do
the job (I own a 20" monitor). And SD64 was not available 1 year ago. Let's
hope the upcoming Retina software will fix the problems. I have strong
doubts…
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
>And the software still allocates CHIP memory causing major >problems as you
can't open several 1280*1024 screens/windows with some >programs. Now,
MacroSystem claims the CHIP memory is only allocated and not >used because of a
bug in the software. I may believe this claim because >screen updates are much
faster than what you normaly get. However, why >didn't they manage to fix the
bug in nearly one year if it's just a "minor" >bug like they claim?
The CHIP memory thing is one of the MOST annoying bugs. The last time I
talked to NoahJi's they said that they thought that problem had been licked,
but that it hadn't, and that it would be. Still waiting.
What they did tell me though is that they -were- working on some new
software for the Retina Z3 – -they-, not Germany. They said around the New
Year, which it is, so I'll call them, but I have the dismal feeling that there
was a misunderstanding, because I just got the 2.3 version of the Retina
software here on Compuserve, and there are virtually no improvements except
claimed compliance with OS 3.1, which I don't have and so can't check.
As to the AdPro thing, I could never get any of the buttons on the Retina
Saver to work except for Rendered. Go figure.
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
Bad luck, I justed talked with Eric from NoahJi's. Next time I ask him what
he's actually developing. But I'm surprised he's developing something.
MacroSystem Germany is claimed to release a new Retina software early December.
But nothing happened so far. The new software is claimed to also work using the
system screenmode database.
Anyway, based on my experience from the past and knowing the current situation,
I don't expect a real working solution from them.
Regarding ADPro: this is another example of how awfull and rushed solution the
stuff is. Real awfull. The best Retina low level solution I have seen so far
for displaying images is PhotoWorX Pro from Olaf Barthel. Viewing PhotoCD
images in 1500*1000 in Hicolor on an 20" screen is a real joy and the only
reason why I prefered the Retina over other boards with better software but not
as good hardware. But VT and ADPro's have serious problems in my oppion and it
doesn't seem anybody seem to care at ASDG.
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
Aren't the people who are going to market the CyberVision planning to do
their software in other versions as well? I read about this somewhere. It
seems they take so much pride in the stuff (which supposedly runs 24bit
workbench) that they plan on porting it to other gfx boards. Any
confirmation on this?
By the way Wolf, read a report on Studio V2 in German Amiga Magazin today.
Looks like great software! I guess I should buy a printer one of these
days… Any personal recommendations? I'm thinking about an inkjet type.
>F<riso
Friso P. Gosliga | Auto
CIS: 100341,464 – Internet: Friso.Gosliga@kub.nl | Pilot
Do you know when the CyberVision is to be released, and how much it will cost,
by any chance?
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
I don't have any connection to Advanced Systems and their CyberVision stuff.
Strange, because they are located just 500 meters down the street from here 😉
I'm not interested in their stuff as I'm not looking for such a kind of
hardware right now. But yes, it's seems they are working on a more general
approch on the emulation system. Didn't their programmer allready made the
Picasso software 😉
Printer recommendation: Why not buying a diamond ring for your girl friend? To
expensive? Masses of different inkjet printers out there wait for you and are
far cheaper. But it seems most people choose between the Epson Stylus Color and
Canon BJC 600e nowadays (and the girl friend of course).
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
What's wrong with AdPro, particularly, other than what I mentioned?
Is Eric at the sales number? I didn't really talk to anyone there. What did
he say they were working on? I didn't really get a clear picture of what
NoahJi's is doing from Sherwood.
Also, do you know where I might find PhotoWorX Pro? I'm very dissatisfied with
VT, and AdPro just isn't designed for viewing stuff.
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
Well, the main problem with the Retina support is
A. Getting it working… B. Getting rid of it after displaying an image
PhotoWorX Pro? Don't know… I do know there is an US distroibutor and I do
know NoahJi's distribute the ADPro loader based on Olaf's PhotoWorX code. But
the distributor used to be a different company. Beside: PhotoWorX Pro is only
for displaying/converting PhotoCD image files….
Well, VT is ok, but the Retina support has to problems:
a. why not allways displaying displayable modes on the Retina b. scrolling
doesn't work
But in most cases VT works fine for me… it's just a shame those small
problems never got fixed as it makes a otherwise good program sometimes
rubbish. But you can't ask for more if it's free…
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
Getting rid of AdPro after displaying an image, or getting rid of the image
after displaying it? Obviously AdPro is a pain to use just as a viewer, but
that's not its fault. As to AdPro's Retina support, I thought it sucked too
until Sherwood told me that I had to rename the file "Retina" in the Displays2
directory to "retina". Now it's great – all the Retina modes are in the select
display window, and Esc kills the picture.
My basic assumption about VT – which often doesn't work for either – is that
its faults can be traced to the fact that we're using a version of VT made for
the RetinaZ2, which had lower refresh rates and no scrolling, among other
differences.
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
Wolf-
(and everyone else out there with this problem)
I just solved most of the Screens Don't Fill Up The Monitor problem. In fact,
I'm writing this message on an 800×600 Retina screen on the Blitter.
The solution, as far as I can see it, is to set the resolution of an
application's screen in RetinaEmu with a Group rather than with a specific
screen resolution. Then unclick the default buttons and put in the desired
resolution. The problem is that the Groups don't really match up with the
specs of my monitor, which is, despite this, predefined. So this solution
doesn't work with all screens. What you have to do is decide which specific
screen resolution you want, using the Show All Screen Modes option, and then
pick a Group that includes its refresh rates, then click off the default
buttons, and enter in the proper dimensions.
But, as I said, this won't work for higher resolution screens than what's
allowed by the Groups. So I, at least, still have to have my Workbench at
1120×832 in order to get Wordworth to do the same.
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
Hi, Wolf,
Happy New Year! I spoke with Noahji's today and they are stuffing the
envelopes with the new Retina software and Xi Paint. Merry Xmas! You may have
gotten a copy by now for all I know.
I'm looking forward to get PhotoWorX, as I'm having my trip's film put into
PhotoCD. Not cheap, but should be much more fun selecting the ones to print,
not to mention more efficient. Hope the price starts coming down soon <g>.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
Hi, Paul,
I talked to Noahji's today, and they are stuffing the envelopes as we speak
with the new Retina software and Xi Paint! I'm real happy they're making
doubting liars out of us for having no faith <g>. Now let's hope it actually
works, and it's not just that they took the warning requester out of the code
B-).
How's the new year been on the suit so far?
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
DJ-
The system software part is here in the libraries, so far as I know, though
you'll only get XiPaint and that image processing thingamabob in the mail. I've
been running it since the day it was uploaded. No big improvements other than
OS3.1 compatability, which I have no way of checking. It might be a little
more stable, hard to tell.
The CHIP mem problem is still there. It still doesn't use the display
database. Double :(. But Sherwood tells me there is still hope.
As for my suit, <g> it got too wrinkled, so I had to ditch it. After last
year, I figured I'd just call a spade a spade. 😉
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
Paul,
The blitter mode seems to have improved. I'm using all my Retina displays in
BM now <g>. Yes, we'll have to hope for the chip memory silliness to be
resolved in a next release (ha!). I need another display board, but this is
keeping me from getting another ZIII. Oh, well …
DJ
On AP and on the road to recovery from the Road to Mandalay,
From Queens, where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
Hi, Wolf,
I am actually using the blitter mode at 1152×900, and I did define 8-bit
groups. I run my workbench normally at 1120×740 on blitter mode. I can
use 1280×860 with Pagestream (to retain aspect ratio on my monitor, an
Idek 5317) in blitter mode no problem, but the redraw of some line figures
gets messed up under some conditions, which doesn't happen in normal mode.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
DJ-
What exactly did you do to define an 8bit group? I'm not sure I know what you
mean.
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
Paul, in the DefineMonitor utility I selected 8 as the color depth, themn used
Project/Append Group to add it to my monitor definition file. Then I added all
the monitor definition IDs to it. Aren't you using your own definitions? I
realize it's not in the manual (not clearly that is) but it's the only way I
could get stuff to work exactly the way I needed for my monitor.
I just dn'lded the new software – I'll let you know how it fares!
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
I would prize an explanation of how the Define Monitor setup works. I never
could figure it out.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity…. The first lesson of politics
is to disregard the first lesson of economics." (T. Sowell)
Brian, as soon as I get some extra energy <g> I'll upload something.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
No, I'm using the built in definitions for the NEC 5FG, which is what I've got.
You mean there are flaws in those? The problem I'm having (one of them) is
that while Standard output screens will fill up the screen properly, many of
the Blitter versions – supposedly with the same refresh rates, timings,
everything – don't. So for example ALL Blitter screens opened at 800×600 will
only take up a portion of my screen, and seem, for some assinine reason
doubtless connected to that wretched pimpled excuse for a preferences program
RetinaScreenMode, which I don't understand but seem to need, to use the same
timings and refresh rates as my Workbench, which is also on the Blitter, but
works OK, and which I need at an otherwise unneccessarily high resolution in
order to get Wordworth to run at what, for it, is a necessarily high
resolution.
Is your monitor not one of the defaults, or did you have a problem like mine,
or some other problem?
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
My monitor was not in the DB, although I could have used one of the similar
ones. But I had the same kind of problems you're experiencing. I decided to
take the plunge and create all new definitions from scratch. Literally. I
ended up scratching my head a lot, trying to figure out what to do. In the
end, desperation, frustration and spitefulness, together with lots of luck and
a little ingenuity yielded me a viable procedure for creating the necessary 4,
8 and 24 bit groups I wanted.
I can now simulate just about all Amiga rezs plus the big screens we all want,
nicely centered and clean to the edges of the display. It takes some tweeking
about for each size you want, but I found it to be worth it. It's just that I
feel I'm doing something for which I paid a lot of money for. Oh, well.
DJ
On AP and on the road to recovery from the Road to Mandalay,
From Queens, where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
DJ-
I just looked at DefineMonitor, which I hadn't done before since there was no
manual and I didn't seem to need it, and it is, to say the least, a little
confusing. I join with Brian Bartlett in asking for HELP!
Paul (aka Mr. Zombie)
I'll upload a procedure as soon as I recover from my severe jet lag and
upcoming job stress B)
DJ
On AP and on the road to recovery from the Road to Mandalay,
From Queens, where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …
Hmm… Others and I had several chats with the Retina programmer (Henning)
regarding the problems with the 8 Bit groups. Maybe there is something new in
the latest software and you found it. But I would wonder as there is no comment
on it nor is the file size much different.
So why not saving everything in a file and upload it with the corresponding
user-startup changes required so we can have a try?
— Wolf Faust, Am Dorfgarten 10, 60435 Frankfurt, Germany —
Wolf,
I'll do just that, as soon as I get over some of my jet lag <g>.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where the ice cream truck plays Helter Skelter …